Schuberts Unfinished symphony completed - III.Scherzo and IV.Finale

[Gerd Prengel]

My biggest theme this summer was the " completion" of Schuberts Unfinished symphony on the basis of his sketches!! Here the Scherzo with an orchestration of the sketched main part and a new composition of the Trio with Schubert's sketched melody: 

https://youtu.be/FSndEjJPeTM?si=62TpTBfnH2xbq4

And here the Finale :

https://youtu.be/L3yOwZ8OEns?si=pBMOy5FklZ4tFCbn (read the remarks in the description of the video!)

 

What do you think? Of course I would agree when you say that actually the work is already "complete" with only the known 2 previous movements ...

 

Gerd

 

[David]

it's a great shame that the previous discussion here is not still available. Some of us felt the questions about which sketches you chose and why were not sufficiently clearly answered. I had one or two queries about the bridge passages as well which is not to say I didn't find what you'd done in general interesting and enjoyable. And you obviously have a lot of fun doing it which is the main thing.

[Gerd Prengel]

the sketches for the scherzo you can see starting from page 78 at the bottom of each page --> https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/7/75/IMSLP24882-PMLP05477-... What questions did you have? what "bridge" passages?

[David]

ok, so it's the Philip Legge edition. That now answers the main question. Obviously you'll be aware there's a huge controversy as to what exactly Schubert intended for the finale (as indeed the few comments on the video point out). As for bridge passages, I can only go from memory that for instance at 1'09" in the finale, you have created a violin line to match the cello as the yellow highlights mean music you've created from scratch? To me, bars 65 and 66 do not match harmonically what's in the cello (which has a clear f natural) -- playing it on the piano sounds less bad but I remain unconvinced -- I'll let others say what they think as I may be in a minority of one.

[Gerd Prengel]

yes, at 1:09 there was ineed an error, which I corrected already (unfortuneately I cannot make an update on a YT video content), but that is a little detail - what is your generall impression? For example the ending where I pick up the 1st mov. theme and turn it to a glorious B-Major! I am more than happy about that ...

[David]

I remember there being a good deal to enjoy. At the moment I need to go out for the evening but I'll have another listen tomorrow to try and refresh my memory. If I do remember correctly, the coda bringing back the main theme was a nice touch but a shade bombastic -- still I'll go back to it as you may have revised it in the meantime.

[Gerd Prengel]

no I didn't revise it - as I said it is not possible to change a YT Video - only by deleting it and doing a new one

[Kristofer Emerig]

On initial hearing, it's an excellent pastiche, although I was never partial to Schubert. He's much too upbeat and bromidic for my taste (not to detract from his stature nor genius). In fact, if you listen to a lot of Mozart and Brahms on streaming platforms (and I do), their AI will suggest that you also like Schubert, sufficient proof to me that AI is "not there" yet.

Still, it's an impressive undertaking on your part.

[David]

Schubert is my wife's favourite composer. She likes mainly depressing and melancholic music. So something doesn't compute there! Surely you're not going to tell me that the String Quintet is a barrel of laughs? Having said that, it seems to be the sunnier side which has mainly influenced me (although I did do a string quintet which is almost as depressing as Schubert's). And incidentally, my wife mainly finds Mozart boring which proves your point about AI.

[HS Teoh]

Funny, I generally prefer sunnier music, yet one of my favorite Schubert works is his C minor symphony.

I am an AI skeptic. Being a programmer, I did some research into the algorithms underlying the current AI hype, and discovered that it amounts to nothing other than a large-scale interpolator. I.e., given n data points, what we call AI simply interpolates between them. IOW it amounts to nothing more than just drawing lines between dots, a child's exercise with no insight whatsoever. The only reason it's so "successful" today is because the internet gave access to huge mounts of data -- the more points you have, the more accurate the lines between the dots become -- obviously. But that does not change the nature of the algorithm.

Like pixels on a computer screen, given enough pixel density you can represent a photograph to arbitrary accuracy. However, that says nothing about what the photograph represents. Just because you can produce a close-enough approximation to something, does not mean you've actually reproduced the thing itself, or understood its nature. All you did was to add more pixels to the screen; without the underlying data your AI is still as dumb as rocks. It can only interpolate between data that's already there; it cannot *create* new data that's outside of the dataset it was given.

[David]

just going to focus on the finale here. Great start with the skipping accompaniment first heard in the violin bar 8 -- this keeps on coming back and is always effective such as woodwind starting bar 171 (except perhaps from 358 I would not hold the woodwind sustained note for a whole bar). From bar 28 is a new section, I think. The cello seems curiously becalmed -- I'd expect it to go down to the C# once or twice at least. May be worth having another look at this passage. Bar 246 rocking accompaniment vln and viola -- nice and appropriate. Clarinet 253 is another felicitous touch.

OK -- the return of the main theme of the symphony. This is not in Mackerras/Newbould and I think it's eminently suitable -- his version seems perfunctory in comparison. As the preceding music actually written by Schubert is pretty unsubtle and bombastic, I'll let what you've done pass. However I'd ditch bar 413 -- the theme doesn't need this preamble in my view.

Just as a general point -- I have little interest in the rights and wrongs of the countless completions of this symphony. I'm not a Schubert scholar or academic so don't care too much about authenticity. But actually I think your version, despite a few question marks, has more character than the comparable Mackerras so well done indeed on that.