Suggestions for my fugue

[Ingo Lee]

Please make suggestions or criticisms of this fugue.  I started off trying to follow all the rules and the form of a fugue but I couldn't follow all the rules and write something I like, so let me know about those problems and any other comments are welcome also. Thank you.

[Socrates Arvanitakis]

Hi Ingo,

I had a quick look at the score, I did not hear it yet, but I will. I only want to ask one thing now:

I am not a keyboardist at all, but do you mean this piece for three instruments or for one keyboard instrument. In the second case, if the written duration of the notes is to be maintained, I can see some difficult stretches (consecutive tenths for the right  hand) and some unplayable (bigger intervals).

I will listen and come back at some point regarding the music itself.

[Ingo Lee]

Thank you Em for listening and commenting. Whatever else it might be this piece is conservative and tonal which is a style that I love but don't write very much of. I saw in another thread that you listed Coltrane as an influence, we share that, for me it was "Naima" and "These Are a Few of My Favorite Things."  Coltrane doesn't get mentioned much on this forum though.

Em Coston, (MM) said:

I particularly like how it establishes, for want of a better word, a practice(?) that I have always associated with baroque music and considered "stuffy" but of the variety I like, and then it periodically takes flight from its norm. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about fugues to offer any practical insight.

[Ingo Lee]

Socrates you are right, playability is an issue with this piece as it is intended for solo piano. Since I am not a pianist it probably isn't likely that this piece will ever be played by anyone but it is certainly a responsibility of the composer to make compositions workable.  I hope to negotiate with an experienced pianist to improve that. Thank you for commenting!.   

Socrates Arvanitakis said:

Hi Ingo,

I had a quick look at the score, I did not hear it yet, but I will. I only want to ask one thing now:

I am not a keyboardist at all, but do you mean this piece for three instruments or for one keyboard instrument. In the second case, if the written duration of the notes is to be maintained, I can see some difficult stretches (consecutive tenths for the right  hand) and some unplayable (bigger intervals).

I will listen and come back at some point regarding the music itself.

[gregorio X]

Hey Ingo, I found certain sections here, delightful..   Some things struck me as odd.. in particular the repeated 16ths on the same note in a few spots.. But, maybe i need a few more listens to become more acclimatized.. There was, to my mind, an awkward transition (the voices not best conveying your harmonic intent) from the end of m32, to the beginning of m33..

One thing that hit me was at the entrance of the 2nd voice, the counter subject is pretty much in parallel motion of the theme, for half of it.. Which is OK, bit it makes the first voice sound like it too is starting the theme again.. But also, it mirrors for much of it- a parallel 5th.. w/ raise 4th thrown in too.. Though the 5ths are less of an issue to me than the shape of the first half of the counter subject.. There are also naked 5ths sprinkled a bit to much for my taste… 

Aside from all that, I think there is something charming here, and think you should continue on with your exploration of fugue..

Oh, btw, it is definitely playable.

Thanks for posting 

[Ingo Lee]

Thank you Gregorio for helping here. Your fugues have been an inspiration, I like especially "Dark Sky" and "Impromptu" where you expertly include romantic influences without abandoning the fugal form.

I will study your suggestions. I had originally hoped to use my counter subject with retrograde and inversion later in the piece but that quickly devolved into free counterpoint so I'm able now (I think) to revise the initial counter subject which I will do. I will also look at the other points you have raised and repost here when I'm able. Thanks again for the suggestions!

gregorio X said:

Hey Ingo, I found certain sections here, delightful..   Some things struck me as odd.. in particular the repeated 16ths on the same note in a few spots.. But, maybe i need a few more listens to become more acclimatized.. There was, to my mind, an awkward transition (the voices not best conveying your harmonic intent) from the end of m32, to the beginning of m33..

One thing that hit me was at the entrance of the 2nd voice, the counter subject is pretty much in parallel motion of the theme, for half of it.. Which is OK, bit it makes the first voice sound like it too is starting the theme again.. But also, it mirrors for much of it- a parallel 5th.. w/ raise 4th thrown in too.. Though the 5ths are less of an issue to me than the shape of the first half of the counter subject.. There are also naked 5ths sprinkled a bit to much for my taste… 

Aside from all that, I think there is something charming here, and think you should continue on with your exploration of fugue..

Oh, btw, it is definitely playable.

Thanks for posting 

[Ingo Lee]

Well Em, there aren't too many jazz people here but the Coltrane thread would be a good one certainly from my viewpoint. He looms large in art music and beyond.  I always respected "A Love Supreme" but as a player I found it hard to follow.  I was fascinated though by "Giant Steps"  and spent many hours attempting to master it but I never did.

Em Coston, (MM) said:

I absolutely concur that he isn't mentioned enough. (My second greatest influence from him was his "A Love Supreme"... in its entirety and includes the liner notes that imo contributed greatly to the work).  If I had a better foundation for discussing jazz theory/techniques I'd start a thread about him in the "Discuss a Composer" subforum.

Ingo Lee said:

 I saw in another thread that you listed Coltrane as an influence, we share that, for me it was "Naima" and "These Are a Few of My Favorite Things."  Coltrane doesn't get mentioned much on this forum though.

[Ingo Lee]

Hey Gregorio, I've been looking at your suggestions and they were right on.  My original m32 had a cross relation, oops! So I went through and made some changes, maybe if you have a minute you could check them out and see if anything else pops up?  Thanks again for the help!

gregorio X said:

Hey Ingo, I found certain sections here, delightful..   Some things struck me as odd.. in particular the repeated 16ths on the same note in a few spots.. But, maybe i need a few more listens to become more acclimatized.. There was, to my mind, an awkward transition (the voices not best conveying your harmonic intent) from the end of m32, to the beginning of m33..

One thing that hit me was at the entrance of the 2nd voice, the counter subject is pretty much in parallel motion of the theme, for half of it.. Which is OK, bit it makes the first voice sound like it too is starting the theme again.. But also, it mirrors for much of it- a parallel 5th.. w/ raise 4th thrown in too.. Though the 5ths are less of an issue to me than the shape of the first half of the counter subject.. There are also naked 5ths sprinkled a bit to much for my taste… 

Aside from all that, I think there is something charming here, and think you should continue on with your exploration of fugue..

Oh, btw, it is definitely playable.

Thanks for posting 

[gregorio X]

Hi Ingo…I've noticed some interesting changes here.. One thing i think would be helpful is to map out your harmonic changes - and listen to that - w/o all the linear stuff.. noticing how long a chord's duration and it's harmonic relevance to the next chord.. especially at the cadences.. (this includes the voicings).

I played around with the first 9 bars - trying to keep much of your linear shape - and attention to the theme of course.. There are some subtle harmonic changes, and the cadence is a bit more 'set up'..

I wonder what you'll think.

Ingo's fugue 9 bars.pdf

Ingo's fugue_3.aiff

[gregorio X]

(ps.. there is also a  bit more rhythmic interplay). I thought it better to display my thinking than just tell you.

I only offer up this as my approach.. but thought it might be helpful in some way.

[Ingo Lee]

Good suggestions Gregorio.  I have my original harmonic sketch ( probably not followed exactly!) and I can easily post that, or maybe edit it to make the changes more obvious.

I like your version better, I'll study it some more. Your rhythmic interplay is definitely more interesting.  I was trying to keep my rhythms simpler at the outset and then develop them more as the piece progressed in order to give it some direction. But I'm sure you could do that with your version as well; I'm just not sure I'd be able to build on that! :)

Preparation for cadences and modulations are a weak point in this piece, largely because I let my melodic choices interfere with the harmony. (Sounds like a good excuse anyway.)

Thanks for taking the time here, I'll get the harmony plan up soon.

gregorio X said:

Hi Ingo…I've noticed some interesting changes here.. One thing i think would be helpful is to map out your harmonic changes - and listen to that - w/o all the linear stuff.. noticing how long a chord's duration and it's harmonic relevance to the next chord.. especially at the cadences.. (this includes the voicings).

I played around with the first 9 bars - trying to keep much of your linear shape - and attention to the theme of course.. There are some subtle harmonic changes, and the cadence is a bit more 'set up'..

I wonder what you'll think.