Reverb ER and Tails and their relation to multiple mic positions

[James Everett]

Hi guys

I recently posted this on the VI forum also but bringing it here for your opinions.

i know this topic has been about a while and that there are numerous threads with different opinions, but thats why im here. I think i have overloaded myself with the various ways people handle the reverb of ERs and Tails and what suits various libraries.

I read James Semples thread on CF:

 https://composersforum.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a-simple-but-effective-reverb-setup?xg_source=facebook

I agree this is another way simpler method but would still like peoples opinions on the topic below.

Myself and my clients are happy with the sound i get but i am always looking for a step up in my 'Sonics'

So...

I use LASS (lite) for strings, a few VSLs for some woods and EW Platinum and storm drum for the rest. Also Cubase 6.5 Reverence for reverbs (sometimes the Sonnox Oxford rvb which had great ER parameters)

Ive seen SVKs post on the VI forum on how he creates 6 Rvb sends (3 ERs and 3 tails) but i assume this was for his VSL instruments which are completely dry and not for Libraries which have the stage, surround mics ect included.

My question is: How do you guys use separte ER and tails (if at all) with libraries with multiple mics (e.g. East West). Does it even matter??

Ive read its not best to use the ER send on mics with Stage, surround or ambience positions, but after some playing about i didn't like the sound. Most likely because i was doing it wrong :S

Ive seen methods where a separate rvb such as spaces is placed on the groups (strings, brass etc) and that the pre-delay and wetness is only adjusted to "put them in their place". Plus these groups had the various mic postitions all on the same channel.

thanks in advance :)

[Terry Jones]

I use Virtual Sound Stage for placement and air absorption right now and really like it to be honest, but I don't use the ER's in it much as I'm using mostly EWQLSO Gold for my orchestral works. As this only comes with the stage position mics, which can be quite "roomy" sounding and can sound a bit odd if you turn off the sample tails, I tend to just leave those on and treat them as my sort of pseudo ER's instead.

After that I and just use a series (four or five) of delayed QL Spaces Reverbs on each section for my tails and a final very short reverb (ValhallaRoom) on the master bus to glue it all together. This seems to work quite well for me right now but I'm always up for experimentation and other idea as to how to improve this.

<edit> Actually I lied about the QL Spaces Reverb I realise now that I just checked my template. It used to be that I had four or five instances of it, but then I later decided to simplify it. Now I only run two instances; one for general orchestral reverb with the sectional amounts controlled by the individual sends, and a second, brighter digital reverb that I use to "spotlight" certain solo instrument passages or highlight important sounds. Everything else remains the same though. :)

[James Everett]

Thanks Ray. Thanks for your reply. i agree. Ive heard as good results from projects with 1 or two reverbs for the whole track against those with 6. I also totally agree with your second point. I produced dance music for a living for 10 years and it is an 'amateur fashion' to use a plethora of plugins on everything. Although i have stopped producing for the dance scene i still provide mixing services and its amazing how much processing clients drown their files in. They wonder why their dynamics sound...well...less dynamic :)

Raymond Kemp said:

James,

For ER or perhaps instead of, I now have two choices. Vienna Instruments MIR Pro24 or Virtual Sound Stage.

Tails added using 2CAudio B2 either by group insert or variable send levels. It's strange when I think back a few years throwing every effects plugin I had at every track :) Now I don't use half that stuff.

Ray

[James Everett]

Thanks Terry. Ive noticed quite a few people moving away from the 5plus reverbs :) the 2 rvbs suits me (and my cpu lol).

I have the demo of VSS and i think its great especially with its presets for my LASS.

So no ERs on the EW Gold or Plat sample!! Thats the answer i was looking for. Would this apply to the close mics though? (i also have the surrounds). Ive read that people have just used the close mics and switched off stage and surround to have more control over the placement and to put it in an ER enviroment. I tried the briefly but preferred the sound of the stage to be honest. Maybe i havent got to grips with the whole process. It seems most threads i see, people are using VSL instruments (which are completely dry) and using ER, tail and VSS (or MIR).

I see the QL Spaces ValhallaRoom is very popular :)

jay

Terry Jones said:

I use Virtual Sound Stage for placement and air absorption right now and really like it to be honest, but I don't use the ER's in it much as I'm using mostly EWQLSO Gold for my orchestral works. As this only comes with the stage position mics, which can be quite "roomy" sounding and can sound a bit odd if you turn off the sample tails, I tend to just leave those on and treat them as my sort of pseudo ER's instead.

After that I and just use a series (four or five) of delayed QL Spaces Reverbs on each section for my tails and a final very short reverb (ValhallaRoom) on the master bus to glue it all together. This seems to work quite well for me right now but I'm always up for experimentation and other idea as to how to improve this.

<edit> Actually I lied about the QL Spaces Reverb I realise now that I just checked my template. It used to be that I had four or five instances of it, but then I later decided to simplify it. Now I only run two instances; one for general orchestral reverb with the sectional amounts controlled by the individual sends, and a second, brighter digital reverb that I use to "spotlight" certain solo instrument passages or highlight important sounds. Everything else remains the same though. :)

[Terry Jones]

Hi James,

Yes, if you can use just close mics then that would ideal for using the ER's in VSS within my mind, unfortunately I don't have that luxury myself right now or that would probably be my choice too. In fact I'm hoping to eventually replace my entire EWQLSO lib with other libraries instead. It's interesting that you said you tried it and it didn't really work for you though, I guess the fact that the EWQLSO sounds were recorded in an actual hall rather than a dry stage makes it kind of difficult to get rid of that particular sound in the samples themselves in the end.

QL Spaces and Valhalla do seem very popular you're right, I know quite a few people who use or have used them, I also hear great things about the B2 reverb that Raymond mentioned too, but it's a little beyond my budget right now. :) 

James Everett said:

Thanks Terry. Ive noticed quite a few people moving away from the 5plus reverbs :) the 2 rvbs suits me (and my cpu lol).

I have the demo of VSS and i think its great especially with its presets for my LASS.

So no ERs on the EW Gold or Plat sample!! Thats the answer i was looking for. Would this apply to the close mics though? (i also have the surrounds). Ive read that people have just used the close mics and switched off stage and surround to have more control over the placement and to put it in an ER enviroment. I tried the briefly but preferred the sound of the stage to be honest. Maybe i havent got to grips with the whole process. It seems most threads i see, people are using VSL instruments (which are completely dry) and using ER, tail and VSS (or MIR).

I see the QL Spaces ValhallaRoom is very popular :)

jay