How to build "non tonal" harmonies?

[Henri Vartio]

If you're composing harmonies that are not, in the strictest sense, tonal. how do you choose the notes to use.
I'm pretty familiar with the tonal world and all that jazz. So, if you have any ideas, thoughts or methods you have found to be inspiring and working. please enlighten me...
Also, I'm interested in hearing about different resources (books and such) on the subject, if you know any.

[Jonas Aras]

"Atonal" music can still be very consonant sounding vertically, yet not conform to any traditional tonal center.  Further, it has been proved mathematically that all root progressions are equal, i.e., progressions based on the circle of 5ths are not inherently stronger than other root progressions.  There is a couple of hundred of years of aural expectations that have evolved from tradition that you can to choose to be bound by, or you can choose the path of freedom.  Either way, you should know exactly what it is that you are doing.

 

 

[Jeremy Stewart]

Oops! I didn't know that, thanks for the info. I will definitely be checking out Hindemith's system.

Fredrick zinos said:

"Atonal music can't be analyzed using traditional chord symbols."

 

Except of course, that is exactly what Hindemith did with some of Schoenberg. Hindemith wanted to demonstrate that a composer can suspend tonal feeling but can't completely avoid it. Kind of like flying an airplane temporarily suspends (but still depends on ) gravity.

[Nick Capocci]

hello Henri. only just seen your post. Have a look at this: https://composersforum.ning.com/forum/topics/composing-tool-thomes-p...

 

It might help. I put this up when everyone was on hols! cheers nick

[Jonathan Metz]

Someone said it above, but in a similar way an approach I use is keeping the intervals and/or sonorities uniform in some way, but it really depends on what I want to communicate. My approach changes every time. A fun thing to try that my composition teacher challenged me to do: write a piece that uses only three intervals. You can only repeat the use of the same interval once before you must move on to another of your three intervals. 

 

Most of the time though I do not like to distinguish between tonality or atonality as I think that perceived differences between the two break down as you compare them on more fundamental levels. Not to mention the fact that there are way more options out there than just tonality and atonality. Consider: pantonality, bi-tonality, poly-tonality, micro-tonality, tonality based on drone, "regional" tonality, and neo-tonality (which is probably more the name of a movement rather than a type of tonality). Of course, you probably already know this.

[Nick Capocci]

just a thought, have you read my thesis on this subject - ie.tonality/atonality? will send link if interested. cheers nick

Jonathan Metz said:

Someone said it above, but in a similar way an approach I use is keeping the intervals and/or sonorities uniform in some way, but it really depends on what I want to communicate. My approach changes every time. A fun thing to try that my composition teacher challenged me to do: write a piece that uses only three intervals. You can only repeat the use of the same interval once before you must move on to another of your three intervals. 

 

Most of the time though I do not like to distinguish between tonality or atonality as I think that perceived differences between the two break down as you compare them on more fundamental levels. Not to mention the fact that there are way more options out there than just tonality and atonality. Consider: pantonality, bi-tonality, poly-tonality, micro-tonality, tonality based on drone, "regional" tonality, and neo-tonality (which is probably more the name of a movement rather than a type of tonality). Of course, you probably already know this.

[Jonathan Metz]

Sure, send it along, would love to see it. I too am a theorist.

Nick Capocci said:

just a thought, have you read my thesis on this subject - ie.tonality/atonality? will send link if interested. cheers nick

Jonathan Metz said:

Someone said it above, but in a similar way an approach I use is keeping the intervals and/or sonorities uniform in some way, but it really depends on what I want to communicate. My approach changes every time. A fun thing to try that my composition teacher challenged me to do: write a piece that uses only three intervals. You can only repeat the use of the same interval once before you must move on to another of your three intervals. 

 

Most of the time though I do not like to distinguish between tonality or atonality as I think that perceived differences between the two break down as you compare them on more fundamental levels. Not to mention the fact that there are way more options out there than just tonality and atonality. Consider: pantonality, bi-tonality, poly-tonality, micro-tonality, tonality based on drone, "regional" tonality, and neo-tonality (which is probably more the name of a movement rather than a type of tonality). Of course, you probably already know this.

[Nick Capocci]

Hi Jonathan, here are a couple of links. I was interested in your comments regarding Hindemith.

(I'll shortly be re-loading a discussion about my own theory - with mp3, vid link and explanatory score.) Anyway, I'd be interested in your opinion. Best wishes, nick

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHTDI2dKzrU

 

http://www.nickcapocci.co.uk/4.html

Jonathan Metz said:

Sure, send it along, would love to see it. I too am a theorist.

Nick Capocci said:

just a thought, have you read my thesis on this subject - ie.tonality/atonality? will send link if interested. cheers nick

Jonathan Metz said:

Someone said it above, but in a similar way an approach I use is keeping the intervals and/or sonorities uniform in some way, but it really depends on what I want to communicate. My approach changes every time. A fun thing to try that my composition teacher challenged me to do: write a piece that uses only three intervals. You can only repeat the use of the same interval once before you must move on to another of your three intervals. 

 

Most of the time though I do not like to distinguish between tonality or atonality as I think that perceived differences between the two break down as you compare them on more fundamental levels. Not to mention the fact that there are way more options out there than just tonality and atonality. Consider: pantonality, bi-tonality, poly-tonality, micro-tonality, tonality based on drone, "regional" tonality, and neo-tonality (which is probably more the name of a movement rather than a type of tonality). Of course, you probably already know this.