0 Haydn, boring? Think again. Posted by Simon Godden on June 3, 2010 at 7:27pm in Miscellaneous For any of you who have always found that Mozart and Beethoven tended to steal Haydn's thunder, listen to this and think again:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQGb7kTtOzQ&feature=relatedIt will move you to tears. Views: 203 You need to be a member of Composers' Forum to add comments! Join Composers' Forum Email me when people reply – Follow
I understand perfectly well what you are saying, the idea is simple and straight forward, essentially true. Although the playing, much like my piano, the pitch(s) are somewhat disorienting and off balance through it's internal structure. Although I think the composition as presented, not from a performance point of view but from the actual written piece in both it's structural form and melodic phrasing is very unique and inspiring, it certainly grabs one by the ear doesn't it?
I will add this link to another of Haydn's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aoUxKfHS9I , it too carries a similar level of excellence, I will say I haven't listened to much of his works and that I'm sure if one were to truly search there, many things would start to pop up that have that kind of flair I think you are talking about, but on the other side I still know what thought you are referring to, it's a simple thought, an innocent idea, nothing more nothing less, it even gives it a very subjective and person to person point of reference as far as interest and comments go (this is in respects to Jeffs comments)....
You must understand jeff that the intent of this post of Simon's was to follow up on an idea of his, and support a perspective that he himself holds, regardless of how much musical knowledge one has to their devises and how particular one is about articulation and accuracy... in relation to the bad playing as I agree upon within the context of the video Simon posted, there is never any need to approach a conversation, in any context with the intent of foolish and malicious conduct. It is as though you are purposely trying to tear Simon apart when there is no need, you could have looked past the obvious playing and looked deeper into the literal intents of the composer, imagining instead of interrogating.
I say this for a simple cause. I do not care if you two decide to quarrel, if anything it is more of interest to myself that there is a small dispute here, so that I may better come to understand this interesting phenomena of our human species. But for your own self, in the nature of what is good and right, you must understand that this pattern of yours, as you have displayed quite obviously here, will be of no use to you as you grow older and will in fact grow to be more of a thorn than your sword of intelligence and learning, surly one that will infect and rot. You see It is in the nature of the beast of find this dominance both intellectually (and in some other context, physically), but in the more sensible and, by quite a leap, difficult rout of understanding there is the way of kindness and thoughtfulness, essentially the hallmark and genteelness of the wise. This you may obtain through the search of innocence, well mannered conversations and devout understanding of many if not all sides of a topic and viewpoint while in the act of tackling any such situations or topics. it is through our growth that this transformation takes place, and the decisions of the hear and now where we may find the path of well being and essential wisdom. You must come to learn that this malevolent and apparent stance of knowledge and rightness you have taken hear is only a glimpse of what you may soon to repeat, that it is not only harmful to others but to yourself and will cause growth to be crooked and short, meaningless and void, wreck-less and heartless.
It may seem that I am exaggerating the weight of the words you have presented on this topic, but I assure you I have not, there is more to what you are doing that you do not know, otherwise you would not have done it and would not have continued so, one cannot accurately weigh the intent of another such as the case with Simon and his reasoning for posting this link, but Many would see your comments and question why as the presence of force and ego are present.
Please consider taking a more thoughtful approach on your future comments, and try to see this video Simon has posted from a deeper dimension than simply looking for mistakes or poor playing from the orchestra, it really is a quite fascinating work of art and genius, I had never known Haydn to be so thoughtful and witty in his works, If it were not for the apparent energy in Mozart and Beethoven's works one could say that Haydn was the true master of the three.
Bach stands to reason, By my own preference I will always prefer Bach to the three :)
I know I used to be a little grumpy now and again, before I started having cats again. There's something about a warm, purring ball of fuzz on your lap... they are always happy to see me, and rub their head in my hand... melts frustration away. They are like my kids, i should think...
(Begin Wikipedia excerpt...)
Haydn as Mozart's mentor
Mozart in many ways did not need a mentor at the time he met Haydn; he was already rather successful and for most of his life up to the time had been under the very active tutelage of his father Leopold. However, two aspects of the historical record suggest that the senior composer did in some sense take Mozart under his wing and offer him advice.
First, during the early Vienna years, when Mozart was influenced by Baron van Swieten to take up the study of Baroque counterpoint, Haydn loaned him his personal copy of the famous counterpoint textbook Gradus ad Parnassum, by Johann Joseph Fux, a copy heavily covered with Haydn's personal annotations.
There is also the observation that, like many other younger musicians, Mozart addressed Haydn with the honorific term "Papa". For details of this form of address, see Papa Haydn.
(End Wikipedia excerpt...)
For wildlife preparation recipes? Crow tastes best boiled, i should think...
That in no way, shape, or form suggests that Mozart learned about composition from Haydn. 'Study' would seem to suggest formal training, no? Casual advice on 'oh, maybe think about doing this instead of that' is not the same as 'this is a common progression to repeat just before the medial caesura'.
Notice it said Mozart didn't NEED formal training by the time he met Haydn. There you go. Lending him a book also does not count as formal training. I think you may need some formal training, because you don't seem to even know what that means.
Therefore, I'll give you advice on your forum posts, lend you one of my books... and you can say you studied with Jeff Cattie. lol give me a break.
Sean E Duvall said:
"However, two aspects of the historical record suggest that the senior composer did in some sense take Mozart under his wing"
Also, Mozarts precocious talent notwithstanding, the older composer would naturally have given some guidance to the younger one, if only wisdom he imparted. Intelligence can be had young, wisdom comes later... a bit sooner with an older expert around you.
No one is saying he admisistered music theory quizzes to Mozart and graded him, but... Mozart did call him "papa".
PS - when boiling crow, add a tablespoon of kosher salt, it makes it more tender...
That's kind of why Haydn and Mozart are grouped together in the same tradition? You never hear about Haydn in the context of some older generation - there was a whole school that followed both composers. You can't treat Mozart the same way you treat Beethoven. Beethoven, and all of Haydn's other students, had a completely different relationship to him.
Sean E Duvall said:
It is perfectly admissable to say that both Beethoven and Mozart studied with Haydn even if Mozart did not receive any formal tuition from him. The fact that they were friends suggests that they would both have analysed each other's music together (if that isn't 'study', I don't know what is), and it is also well known that Mozart was influenced in some way by Haydn, otherwise he might not have written any string quartets.
Laura Cook said:
Sean E Duvall said:
Simon Godden said: