It was suggested that I post my new piece here as opposed to my blog. I had challenged myself to write a Fugue but I'm not entirely sure if I've done it properly. Any input?
Not at all Ray, no need to apologise. I am honoured to be singled out for a special mention and I'm glad you found my statement so powerful.
However, I'm not quite sure of the point you are making. And what you mean by getting a life. Nor am I sure of what it is you think should be punishable by hanging.
Ray Kemp said:
Surely it must be a hanging offence?
Disembowelling probably a better solution. You all need to get a life.
Sorry Michael, I don't mean to single you out but your statement is so powerful.
Michael Tauben said:
I'm afraid the piece is not a fugue and nor is it contrapuntal.
A Fugue or not a Fugue?
It was suggested that I post my new piece here as opposed to my blog. I had challenged myself to write a Fugue but I'm not entirely sure if I've done…
The structure you describe is perhaps a Rondo. A fugue is, if nothing else, polyphonic and contrapuntal.
In this day and age, why set out to write a fugue in a harmonic language that is more common in the 18th C?
One good reason would be as an academic exercise, to gain a deeper understanding of the problems and solutions found in writing good counterpoint.
Another reason would be to gain more insight into the techniques and style of the great practitioners - Bach, for one.
If a poet states that he/she has written say, a triolet and then doesn't repeat the lines in the places that the form dictates, then, although it may be beautiful, evocative or profound, it isn't a triolet.
Jonathan Metz said:
I would have to disagree with both Josef and Michael. I do believe it is a fugue, it does not matter whether it is polyphonic or not. One can state a theme and then state that theme in another voice without continuing a polyphonic texture in the voice that first stated the theme. That is exactly what you do in fact. There's no rule that says you can't do that. To my understanding a fugue is anything that has this general structure: Exposition--Episode--Statement--Episode--Statement and so on until the Coda (sometimes preceded by a stretto). Yours certainly has this structure, so I believe it is a fugue. I personally like the two-voice polyphonic and homophonic texture that alternate between throughout. That is to me unconventional, and therefore interesting.
You have a beautiful theme and your progressions move along very nicely. I believe what could make it sounds more like a fugue is to write out a counter-subject that would come after the statement (theme). Right now what you have going on where a counter-subject would normally go is a I chord--V chord--I chord. Can you turn those chords into a counter theme of some kind that throughout would accompany the theme as it develops? Does that make sense? Wonderful job. I really like the way you come back to the home key you established with picardy third near the end of the piece. Very energizing.
A Fugue or not a Fugue?
It was suggested that I post my new piece here as opposed to my blog. I had challenged myself to write a Fugue but I'm not entirely sure if I've done…
Wow! Thank you for your input everyone, but this is a very old piece that I really like and while I have no intentions of changing it, I suppose I could retitle it. I've not attempted a "fugue" since, but with all this great advice, I may just do that. I've not been around this site for awhile. I should stop in more often.
It's not a fugue. If you want to compare with Bach's Wohltemperierte, I would say this could be a prelude. So now you could write a fugue to go along with it.
There's no reason to call a composition a fugue, if it's not based on voices and counterpoint and it's not following the dux-comes dialog of the voices.
Well Lori, it looks like you have received mixed opinions about whether or not it is a Fugue! I've put in my two cents... I personally do think it's a fugue and I still hold to my argument above... but as you have mentioned, it's been almost two years since you wrote it! Regardless, it is certainly a good composition :) Good job! I have also very much enjoyed reading everyone's ideas about it. Thank you, all.
This is definitely not a standard fugue or a bach's fugue (Subject, countersubject, episodes, etc)
I think the closest would be an invention (2 part) with accompaniment
You are exactly right. A fugue is really more of a process than a form. A fugue is about what happens to the musical material, not how it is laid out in structure. Though because inevitably structure is married to process you do end up with different examples of the structural form of a fugue. Lori's fugue does follow a pretty common example of those structural forms. Her's is in fact ||: Exposition :|| Episode 1--Statement 1--Episode 2--Statement 2--Episode 3--Statement 3--Long coda. So that's why I say YES this is certainly a fugue. But, as you asked Kris, is it fugual? Yes but... it could be more so if there was a more distinct counter subject to accompany the theme throughout and to put into the developing machine that ensues during the episodes, and if perhaps the theme developed a little more motifically during the episodes. Those would be my two suggestions to begin with for future reference.
I will check out Pachabel's Magnificats. It would be nice to get to know a piece by him that is not the Cannon.
Kristofer Emerig said:
I believe the initial question might have been "is this relatively fugal"?
Fugue is, rather than a formal,sectional concept, a set of
techinques for organic subject development through tranformative and replicative means,
potentially flowering into myriad forms too diverse to define or predict meaningfully. It
is, from my perspective, a study of isometries in sound.
A Fugue or not a Fugue?
It was suggested that I post my new piece here as opposed to my blog. I had challenged myself to write a Fugue but I'm not entirely sure if I've done…
I really don't get this structure point of view. I mean that the structure would be the key to whether we have a fugue or not. You can study all fugues in Wohltemperierte 1 & 2 and Die Kunst der Fuge and you won't find anything alike this composition of Lori's. Just pick any baroque fugue. They are all strictly polyphonic. You can always count the number of voices. And you can pick a fugue of Brahms as well.
In Wohltemperierte the structure of the fugues is there, I give you that. But the development from one section to another deals with the contrapuntal ideas. In the first section the theme and counter theme is usually exposed in each voice. In next sections the theme goes through the voices in stretto, augmented, inverted, sometimes a second theme is introduced. Each section usually deals with one idea. And these ideas are contrapuntal. No rhythmic chord accompaniment. Everything is in the polyphonic voices.
Then we have something called Fugato. A Fugato is like the first section of a fugue, inserted in a larger composition. Like the trancit section in Mozart's Jupiter symphony, 4th movement. It's all there that a fugue needs. A single voice starts, next voice comes in in the dominant key, third voice in the tonic and so on. In Händel's Messiah there are lots of fugato like sections for the choir, some of which have an accompanying orchestra. And I guess the last Amen part from Messiah could be called a complete fugue. Despite the massive homophonic sounding choir and orchestra tutti near the end the whole Amen part is still about the fugal polyphonic voices. Baroque, classic, romantic, makes no difference. The fugue is about polyphonic voices.
That said, I do like Lori's composition. Some small oddities pop up there but I prefer to think they are intentional.
I'm not sure if I'm sorry I started this discussion or not. All of you are clearly educated composers. I only write music because I can and I enjoy it. I am a self taught pianist with very few lessons throughout highschool. I learned to read music when I was taught violin at age 10. My goal was to write a fugue and whether I did or did not, I like my end result. I'm thinking I may stick to writing what I think sounds good, instead of trying to structure my creativity into something it isn't, or more, something I don't fully understand. Thanks again for the input everyone and I appreciate that some of you liked my piece.
I really don't get this structure point of view. I mean that the structure would be the key to whether we have a fugue or not. You can study all fugues in Wohltemperierte 1 & 2 and Die Kunst der Fuge and you won't find anything alike this composition of Lori's. Just pick any baroque fugue. They are all strictly polyphonic. You can always count the number of voices. And you can pick a fugue of Brahms as well.
In Wohltemperierte the structure of the fugues is there, I give you that. But the development from one section to another deals with the contrapuntal ideas. In the first section the theme and counter theme is usually exposed in each voice. In next sections the theme goes through the voices in stretto, augmented, inverted, sometimes a second theme is introduced. Each section usually deals with one idea. And these ideas are contrapuntal. No rhythmic chord accompaniment. Everything is in the polyphonic voices.
Then we have something called Fugato. A Fugato is like the first section of a fugue, inserted in a larger composition. Like the trancit section in Mozart's Jupiter symphony, 4th movement. It's all there that a fugue needs. A single voice starts, next voice comes in in the dominant key, third voice in the tonic and so on. In Händel's Messiah there are lots of fugato like sections for the choir, some of which have an accompanying orchestra. And I guess the last Amen part from Messiah could be called a complete fugue. Despite the massive homophonic sounding choir and orchestra tutti near the end the whole Amen part is still about the fugal polyphonic voices. Baroque, classic, romantic, makes no difference. The fugue is about polyphonic voices.
That said, I do like Lori's composition. Some small oddities pop up there but I prefer to think they are intentional.
A Fugue or not a Fugue?
It was suggested that I post my new piece here as opposed to my blog. I had challenged myself to write a Fugue but I'm not entirely sure if I've done…
Replies
Not at all Ray, no need to apologise. I am honoured to be singled out for a special mention and I'm glad you found my statement so powerful.
However, I'm not quite sure of the point you are making. And what you mean by getting a life. Nor am I sure of what it is you think should be punishable by hanging.
Ray Kemp said:
The structure you describe is perhaps a Rondo. A fugue is, if nothing else, polyphonic and contrapuntal.
In this day and age, why set out to write a fugue in a harmonic language that is more common in the 18th C?
One good reason would be as an academic exercise, to gain a deeper understanding of the problems and solutions found in writing good counterpoint.
Another reason would be to gain more insight into the techniques and style of the great practitioners - Bach, for one.
If a poet states that he/she has written say, a triolet and then doesn't repeat the lines in the places that the form dictates, then, although it may be beautiful, evocative or profound, it isn't a triolet.
Jonathan Metz said:
It's not a fugue. If you want to compare with Bach's Wohltemperierte, I would say this could be a prelude. So now you could write a fugue to go along with it.
There's no reason to call a composition a fugue, if it's not based on voices and counterpoint and it's not following the dux-comes dialog of the voices.
This is definitely not a standard fugue or a bach's fugue (Subject, countersubject, episodes, etc)
I think the closest would be an invention (2 part) with accompaniment
You are exactly right. A fugue is really more of a process than a form. A fugue is about what happens to the musical material, not how it is laid out in structure. Though because inevitably structure is married to process you do end up with different examples of the structural form of a fugue. Lori's fugue does follow a pretty common example of those structural forms. Her's is in fact ||: Exposition :|| Episode 1--Statement 1--Episode 2--Statement 2--Episode 3--Statement 3--Long coda. So that's why I say YES this is certainly a fugue. But, as you asked Kris, is it fugual? Yes but... it could be more so if there was a more distinct counter subject to accompany the theme throughout and to put into the developing machine that ensues during the episodes, and if perhaps the theme developed a little more motifically during the episodes. Those would be my two suggestions to begin with for future reference.
I will check out Pachabel's Magnificats. It would be nice to get to know a piece by him that is not the Cannon.
Kristofer Emerig said:
I really don't get this structure point of view. I mean that the structure would be the key to whether we have a fugue or not. You can study all fugues in Wohltemperierte 1 & 2 and Die Kunst der Fuge and you won't find anything alike this composition of Lori's. Just pick any baroque fugue. They are all strictly polyphonic. You can always count the number of voices. And you can pick a fugue of Brahms as well.
In Wohltemperierte the structure of the fugues is there, I give you that. But the development from one section to another deals with the contrapuntal ideas. In the first section the theme and counter theme is usually exposed in each voice. In next sections the theme goes through the voices in stretto, augmented, inverted, sometimes a second theme is introduced. Each section usually deals with one idea. And these ideas are contrapuntal. No rhythmic chord accompaniment. Everything is in the polyphonic voices.
Then we have something called Fugato. A Fugato is like the first section of a fugue, inserted in a larger composition. Like the trancit section in Mozart's Jupiter symphony, 4th movement. It's all there that a fugue needs. A single voice starts, next voice comes in in the dominant key, third voice in the tonic and so on. In Händel's Messiah there are lots of fugato like sections for the choir, some of which have an accompanying orchestra. And I guess the last Amen part from Messiah could be called a complete fugue. Despite the massive homophonic sounding choir and orchestra tutti near the end the whole Amen part is still about the fugal polyphonic voices. Baroque, classic, romantic, makes no difference. The fugue is about polyphonic voices.
That said, I do like Lori's composition. Some small oddities pop up there but I prefer to think they are intentional.
Spot on Johan. At last the voice of reason.
Johan Halmén said:
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