Choice of Key

[Nalinikanth Josyabhatla]

Greetings!

I never received a convincing reply on the choices of keys composers made in their compositions. The best example would be Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, why is it in C# Minor rather than C Minor? The tonics differ just by a semitone. Also, in the equal temparment system of tuning, the Chord qualities will not vary.

Explanations, opinions and theories are welcome.

Thanks & Regds...

[Anne Goodwin]

I would like to remind everyone that this is a Scholars Group and is NOT a forum for merely giving our own free opinions. Please back up your comments with references from respected sources if at all possible. Thanks.

[Ray Kemp]

Never answer a question with a question but I'm a rogue rather than a scholar :)

Did or do great composers ever ask themselves what key is best for a piece or did/do they have such a grasp of the capabilities in tone and timbre of the instruments they write for, they simply hear it in their head and write it/play it?

[Anne Goodwin]

Okay, attempting to get us on track, I will begin with this quotation (since, at the moment, I am unable to locate the one I really want) and so from The Harvard Dictionary of Music, 4th Edition (p. 443), I read this, "If equal temperament is used, the internal relationship of all keys are identical, and keys differ only in their absolute pitch. This has sometimes been used to counter the view that keys have inherent meaning. Even through the Classical period, on the other hand, some tuning systems favored the acoustical purity of certain keys at the expense of others. And some instruments may differ in sound from one key to another depending, e.g., on the disposition of open strings or the harmonic series for the length of tube employed. But this only argues for differences among keys and not for the attachment of any particular meaning to any one of them. Robert Schumann (1835), while dismissing a correlation of specific keys and characteristics, nevertheless, argued for differences among keys (trans. Steblin, 1983)."

I'm not sure where this quote takes us but at least it's a quote. Let's try to be clear when discussing this issue whether what we are saying is 'fact' (i.e. establishable information) or 'opinion' (perhaps establishable but perhaps not). The facts should ideally come first - but then again, that's my opinion - okay, I'm trying to be funny . . . facts first please everyone!

[Marius Amado-Alves]

Strings sound diferently when pressed or not. Certain keys require the strings be more pressed than others. Therefore, on strings, the keys change the timbre.

Maybe this key-related differences in timbre have influenced the attribution of feel to keys. Loose strings more natural, organic; pressed keys more clinical, artificial...

Here's a reference: http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/02/brahms_and_deat.html

But the attribution of character to keys probably is historical influence from the memories of non well-tempered times (and hence an anacronism).

[Anne Goodwin]

That's a very good question Ray. I invite everyone to consider your question, to read and research it, and to come back to it with an informed opinion. Given that the question is very broad, you may have to allow some time to pass before we can begin to delve into it in an intelligent fashion. Thanks for bringing it up.

[H. A.]

When talking about piano tuning and the issue of a key having a characteristic or "color" there is the consideration of the overtone series which still takes effect in Equal Temperament. You also have to maks sure that when talking about Beethovenn, Mozart, Bach and even as late as Chopin that you understand they didn't always use Equal Temperament Tuning. They used Well Temperament Tuning or forms of Just Tuning. The issue with Just and forms of Well Temperament Tuning was the dissonant beats created between certain notes because of the specific mathmatic tuning systme used....but it was still not as uneven as Mean Tone tuning and other tuning efforts
The change from Just Tuning to Well Temperament Tuning and Equal Tuning was to eliminate the dissonant beats between those certain notes in the other tuning systems but it did not take away from key quality/timbre/sensation.
In articles that I have read and studied regarding the movements of various tuning systems the first concept to be discussed is the overtones series which effects quality/sensation no matter what tuning system is used.
The move to more equal tuning was did was not to eliminate key color to paly equaly in all keys but to eliminate dissonant beats between certain notes when palying in various keys. Bascially, its about being to play "equally" in all keys and I have yet to read where that has to do with taking away key color on the piano especially when overtones will still play a part in creating sensation.

I would also like to add that the composer like Bach and Beethoven were not oblivious to the science and mathmatics of various tunings and the overtone series. During their time it was up to them when it came to tuning their own instruments. Also composers like Rameau in books on composition and harmony talked about tuning and the overtone series.

http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/bain/software/BainTheOvertoneSeries.pdf
http://graham.main.nc.us/~bhammel/MUSIC/ovrtns.html
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

[Anne Goodwin]

Interesting stuff; thanks for the references. Very complex subject it seems; although perhaps less so to others than myself I suspect . . . I wonder how all these various tuning methods would also have directly altered how 'documents* set in stone' sound as time goes forward? Sometimes at concerts, attempts are made to play on 'period instruments.' Is this an attempt to regain the 'original sound and key?' If so, does it work at all?

*scores

[Ray Kemp]

H Archibald,

When listening to recordings from 1990-91 featuring Nikolaus Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe performing Beethoven's Symphonies 1 ~ 9 should I be disappointed in hearing them played by modern instruments and therefore not sounding as was originally intended or should I marvel at a modern interpretation of which the composer could not have envisaged.

[Nalinikanth Josyabhatla]

Hi Kemp, your statements are intriguing & paradoxical :-)

My thoughts: Overtones/Harmonics are imminent whatever be the tuning (just/equal/well tempered). Is a normal ear capable of perceiving these subtle differences in pitch qualities?

[Ray Kemp]

The answer to that is simple! yes (I think my ear is as normal as anyone else's). I must say I often hear micro-tuning irregularities that others around me seem not to detect. Probably a test can be set up with a couple of libraries I have. VSL instruments default to 440Hz for A whereas HALion Symphonic Orchestra instruments default to 442Hz. I immediately detect the difference and I would hope most musicians would. Of course the detection of the difference is made easier when an instrument from each library is played together. Can it be done when hearing only one at a time????????

[Anne Goodwin]

I think the quote I am looking for was in a book about Mozart that I do not currently own and that I read several years ago. I have scanned my book about Beethoven (that I do own and have also read) and cannot seem to find the specific thing I am looking for and so it is probably not in there. I apologize that, at least for the moment, I am unable to provide this particular quote; however, I do indeed remember reading this because at the time when I read that, I was most fascinated by the concepts (of different keys having different 'personalities' or characteristics and moods.)

[Anne Goodwin]

Attached is something that I printed off from somewhere; it may have even come from this forum. Anyway, I thought I'd post it for interest (although it is in no way a 'scholarly' document!).