Phrasing

[Simon Godden]

When studying a lot of orchestral scores, I invariably find a lot of phrasing (very long "slurs" that are written above any already existing slurs and tied notes, to illustrate a short part of music as if it were a piece of prose).  In front of me now, at this very moment, I have an excerpt from Strauss's ''Elektra" which is a huge piece of work and there are phrases that soar over "existing slurs and tied notes", lasting from between one and four/five bars.

Personally, I've never used them.  I've never, in the 20 years of formal study (8 of which were dedicated to composition) that I've undergone, been taught how to use them, or why we use them.  I've always been under the impression that there's enough musical notation already to dictate how the music should sound without using phrases.

I'd be interested to know what other people think, especially orchestral composers.

Cheers,

Simon

[Michael Tauben]

The phrase marks that you are referring to are not mechanical directions but expressive and interpretive ones.
It means that that the passage should be interpreted as a single phrase as in speech.
The best way to think of it is as if you were singing the notes- you would do it in a singe breath.
That is my understanding anyway.

[Peter Alexander]

Your question is a little difficult answer without a score reference. But overall, you're looking at the inner phrasing to take place within a single breath.

[Adrian Allan]

I wouldn't bother with them. If their use is so subjective, don't make life harder than it needs to be.

[Simon Godden]

My thoughts exactly.

Adrian Allan said:

I wouldn't bother with them. If their use is so subjective, don't make life harder than it needs to be.

[Simon Godden]

My question was really, are they necessary (phrase-marks)? Are orchestral composers still using them? I can see their function in piano music to a certain degree, especially piano music open to interpretation as a lot of Chopin's work was. But for phrase marks to appear on an orchestral score for conductors to interpret is giving him/her to much to think about, in my opinion.

Peter Alexander said:

Your question is a little difficult answer without a score reference. But overall, you're looking at the inner phrasing to take place within a single breath.

[Michael Tauben]

I'm not a fan over over complicated directions either, but, anything that helps the interpreter get into the mind of the composer may be useful. When Tchaikovsky- and others- write fffff or ppppp this is obviously a nonsense in a literal sense but it is a deliberate overstatement which shows his intent.

Simon Godden said:

My question was really, are they necessary (phrase-marks)? Are orchestral composers still using them? I can see their function in piano music to a certain degree, especially piano music open to interpretation as a lot of Chopin's work was. But for phrase marks to appear on an orchestral score for conductors to interpret is giving him/her to much to think about, in my opinion.

Peter Alexander said:

Your question is a little difficult answer without a score reference. But overall, you're looking at the inner phrasing to take place within a single breath.

[Ann Rodela]

Interesting question. Perhaps we should keep our writings clean and not give in the excess.

[Simon Godden]

Well, that's certainly my intention. I'm not too sure that I would be able to annotate phrasing marks correctly anyway. That is to say, if there is anyway to avoid confusing the musicians and/or conductor, I'm all for it.

Ann Rodela said:

Interesting question. Perhaps we should keep our writings clean and not give in the excess.

[Simon Godden]

I wouldn't use such extreme dynamics either. I think that Tchaikovsky's intentions in the case that you have mentioned, is much in line with the use of the Italian direction 'prestissimo' (faster than as fast as possible {presto}), which is a 'obviously a nonsense' also.

Michael Tauben said:

I'm not a fan over over complicated directions either, but, anything that helps the interpreter get into the mind of the composer may be useful. When Tchaikovsky- and others- write fffff or ppppp this is obviously a nonsense in a literal sense but it is a deliberate overstatement which shows his intent.

Simon Godden said:

My question was really, are they necessary (phrase-marks)? Are orchestral composers still using them? I can see their function in piano music to a certain degree, especially piano music open to interpretation as a lot of Chopin's work was. But for phrase marks to appear on an orchestral score for conductors to interpret is giving him/her to much to think about, in my opinion.

Peter Alexander said:

Your question is a little difficult answer without a score reference. But overall, you're looking at the inner phrasing to take place within a single breath.

[Fredrick zinos]

There was a phase in music history, the late 19th century / early 20th when composers, especially those afflicted with a desire to conduct, used what now appear to be exaggerated directions both notational and linguistic. One finds in Mahler, the perpetually adolescent, "don't drag" "bring forward" "darker" etc. Even Charles Ives did it but in a much nobler way. His directions in a certain passage, to the second violins in his fourth symphony are "if you don't like it, don't play it."

Even Mozart writes a note in the score and solo part of one of his horn concertos (to his friend Joseph Leutgeb, the original soloist) "Take a breath here blockhead, or you'll never make it."

How much direction is enough and how much leads to obfuscation is probably a matter of time and circumstance. In the case of Electra (1903) much of it was so shocking at the time, that Strauss ( who once described himself as a first-rate, third-rate composer) born during the America Civil War may have felt the need for added instruction. On the other hand just a decade after Electra comes Le Sacre and, for all its histrionics, it has almost none of the added direction Strauss thought necessary.

[Simon Godden]

That's because both Schoenberg and Stravinsky (who were usually at each other's throats) believed that musical notation was enough if it was applied correctly and that it was not necessary to apply any interpretative thought on behalf of the conductor.

Fredrick zinos said:

There was a phase in music history, the late 19th century / early 20th when composers, especially those afflicted with a desire to conduct, used what now appear to be exaggerated directions both notational and linguistic. One finds in Mahler, the perpetually adolescent, "don't drag" "bring forward" "darker" etc. Even Charles Ives did it but in a much nobler way. His directions in a certain passage, to the second violins in his fourth symphony are "if you don't like it, don't play it."

Even Mozart writes a note in the score and solo part of one of his horn concertos (to his friend Joseph Leutgeb, the original soloist) "Take a breath here blockhead, or you'll never make it."

How much direction is enough and how much leads to obfuscation is probably a matter of time and circumstance. In the case of Electra (1903) much of it was so shocking at the time, that Strauss ( who once described himself as a first-rate, third-rate composer) born during the America Civil War may have felt the need for added instruction. On the other hand just a decade after Electra comes Le Sacre and, for all its histrionics, it has almost none of the added direction Strauss thought necessary.

[Andy Schofield]

When you write (scores) music yourself, I beleive that the expression and phrasing marks are written for a reason, even if the interpretation of the perfomer may be different to that of the composer. If you have a very firm idea of how you want a particular passage to sound which is not possible to articulate without the use of phrasing marks (or so you beleive) then you will write them. If they are not necessary, then you won't. Authors punctuate their prose in the belief that specific punctuation adds to the interpretation of the passage as it is read, and indeed the places in which you pause for breath can alter the meaning of written passages significantly, so why would we question the composer's similar intentions in music. I have often phrased long passages which I believe need to be interpreted as such.