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I don't subscribe to the idea that whether you like a piece or not depends on your emotional disposition or 'preferences for a particular style. Evidently there are pieces out there which are liked by the majority. Why is this so? Well I thought about why is 'La campanella', 'Fur Elise', 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik' and others so famous when there are other equally as beautiful pieces. Well clearly these 'equally as beautiful pieces' aren't as beautiful as the most played pieces of classical music. Why? Well I think, and I could be wrong, that they're all such coherent pieces of music. By that I mean the melodies are very memorable. It's the same with anything beautiful I guess. The more 'refined' and coherent something is, the more beautiful we seem to find it. Everything that constitutes to the design of something has a purpose - it's not something extraneous. Every note has a purpose to produce something that is whole and 'perfect'. If you started removing even one note then the melody would alter dramatically to become unrecognisable. Music like this seems to be very dense and 'interconnected' in an illusive sense and I hear something that is so precise and delicate but has overwhelming meaning to exist. As if there is a three dimensional underpinning that connects the piece by pulling it together and exposing only the notes that are relevant. That's why I think other pieces aren't as popular because they are facets of these more coherent pieces.... Bach's music is so enjoyable to listen to for this reason. Every note has a purpose... It's quite difficult to explain really but imagine I wanted to extract sodium crystals from a saline solution. I'm sure you've probably done this in school. You leave it out to dry so that the liquid evaporates and you're left with the sodium crystals. In this sense, the liquid is the extraneous notes and the sodium crystal the melody. It's a refining process. 

Which kind of begs the question: What do I have to do to become a good composer. You need to ensure your music is coherent, whole and interconnected with an overwhelming reason to exist. This is most important. I am struggling to find words in my vocabulary to explain my point. Ornamentation and such like doesn't detract from a piece being coherent. It's a question of: Does what's written down produce on the whole something that is coherent. It's very difficult to explain! But imagine if I were going to choose a particular chord or sequence. What if I had chosen one with lesser musical effect? Continually doing this would produce nothing of significance. It's all about how musical units are connected with each other.

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"Its all very personal, but, me personally I liked pentatonic minor best..."

Pentatonic Minor Scales overview

C: C, Eb, F, G, Bb, C

C#/Db: C#, E, F#, G#, B, C#

D: D, F, G, A, C, D

D#/Eb: D#, F#, G#, A#, C#, D#

E: E, G, A, B, D, E

F: F, Ab, Bb, C, Eb, F

F#/Gb: F#, A, B, C#, E, F#

G: G, Bb, C, D, F, G

G#/Ab: G#, B, C#, D#, F#, G#

A: A, C, D, E, G, A

A#/Bb: A#, C#, D#, E#, G#, A#

B: B, D, E, F#, A, B

Interval: 1, b3, 4, 5, b7

Semi-notes: 3 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 2

Formula: Whole and a half, Whole, Whole, Whole and a half, Whole

Vivaldi, possibly the phrase you are looking for to describe the element that

            makes the connection between a composer and a listener is what

            a guy named Lionel Richie called 'The Hook' .

           For him it was central to the piece he was writing. The rest of the

           'song' in his case was build on and around it. I think this phenom happens

           throughout music. A 'key phrase' that resonates with a broader spectrum of

           listeners will then obviously be more popular and sell more- so to speak.

           Yeah, that's it, composing is just like fishing , you may have a bucket

           full of bait, but without a hook, ya won't catch anything.

           Record label rep's also have a major influence as to what gets played

           on the air and how often - it's money and royalties.

"...composing is just like fishing , you may have a bucket
full of bait, but without a hook, ya won't catch anything.
Record label rep's also have a major influence as to what gets played
on the air and how often - it's money and royalties."

I am not sure if that's true anymore. Maybe it was back before in some earlier time, in the last century, or in certain contexts.

I mean, how many people even listen to what's played "on the air," nowadays?

Aren't more and more people forsaking "the air" and "broadcast waves," and traditional radio and TV stations?

Would it be inaccurate to say that larger and larger numbers will soon choose their own music, based on their own criteria (rather than based on what "programmers," and record companies want them to hear)?

Also, comparing human beings to fish-- that is, suggesting that humans are merely unthinking animals who have not evolved beyond their Devonian age predecessors-- could be thought of as a bit degrading, even condescending.

Real music, certainly the ESSENCE of real music, has nothing to do with "money" or "royalties" -- much less does it have to do with "hooks" or any other pain causing object to be inserted into the flesh of the victim/listener.

Rather than "catching" the listener, as the hook catches the fish, I would suggest a slightly more appropriate analogy: music ATTRACTS the listener, as the aroma of a flower entices the humming bird. Even that is a rather crude analogy, in spite of the play on the word "humming."

True music has its effect on the mind, the intellect and the soul, and not merely on the physical body, the way a hook does.

So the question "Why are some pieces of music more liked than others," also implies the question, "Why are some pieces loved throughout the ages-- from the time of Bach and Vivaldi to the present-- while 'popular music' and faddish songs come and go, and are mostly forgotten after a few decades?

The master works of Bach and Beethoven will be known and loved for quite a long time, while the "popular songs" of 1750 and 1820 (whatever those were) are totally forgotten, except perhaps to a few scholars.

I think that's the question we are addressing on this thread, and not merely what makes a piece of music "liked" for a few years, or what makes a song rise to the "top ten" on AM radio.

The original question seems designed to help us think about what gives a piece of music some kind of staying power, which makes it last more than a century, or even longer. The question might also imply: What makes a piece of music seem to emerge out of eternity into our realm of time and space?

That's a question I would ask about many of Bach's Preludes and Fugues, or about Prokofiev's Third Symphony.

Mr. Z and O O , short of writing a book on the subject detailing every detail, or turning a 

                          figurative molehill into a literal mountain, wouldn't you agree that these are

                          2 examples of a 'catchy' tune?    again I empasize -    so to speak.
                          As in math, X may equal 4 and Y may equal 7  so 'hook' may equal

                          appeal and/or resonance to a listener whether they are simply feeling it

                          or relating to it on a more intellectual level.

                          Composing a 'bucket full' of notes without any supporting subliminal structure

                          surely won't survive the ages ,( at least I can't think of any) and structure in and

                          of itself is rarely if at all enough.

                          So to reiterate, the idea of hook simply meant a melodic catch phrase.

                         

                         
Fredrick zinos said:

IN my opinion, supported by exactly no objective data, music with staying power seems to be both emotionally and intellectually satisfying. A composition that exhibits one or the other of these qualities- a "hook" OR an elegant theoretical premise-  may have transitory popularity but eventually listeners become tired of the thing no matter that it has some merit. I like to compare "Take the A Train" and Mozart symphony 39 1st movement. They are quite similar in design, but Mozart holds up over the centuries where it is too soon to say if that will be the fate of the Ellington composition. The Mozart seems timeless, the Ellington, though completely delightful, even now sounds dated though only 80 years old.

 


Ondib Olmnilnlolm said:

"...composing is just like fishing , you may have a bucket
full of bait, but without a hook, ya won't catch anything.
Record label rep's also have a major influence as to what gets played
on the air and how often - it's money and royalties."

I am not sure if that's true anymore. Maybe it was back before in some earlier time, in the last century, or in certain contexts.

I mean, how many people even listen to what's played "on the air," nowadays?

Aren't more and more people forsaking "the air" and "broadcast waves," and traditional radio and TV stations?

Would it be inaccurate to say that larger and larger numbers will soon choose their own music, based on their own criteria (rather than based on what "programmers," and record companies want them to hear)?

Also, comparing human beings to fish-- that is, suggesting that humans are merely unthinking animals who have not evolved beyond their Devonian age predecessors-- could be thought of as a bit degrading, even condescending.

Real music, certainly the ESSENCE of real music, has nothing to do with "money" or "royalties" -- much less does it have to do with "hooks" or any other pain causing object to be inserted into the flesh of the victim/listener.

Rather than "catching" the listener, as the hook catches the fish, I would suggest a slightly more appropriate analogy: music ATTRACTS the listener, as the aroma of a flower entices the humming bird. Even that is a rather crude analogy, in spite of the play on the word "humming."

True music has its effect on the mind, the intellect and the soul, and not merely on the physical body, the way a hook does.

So the question "Why are some pieces of music more liked than others," also implies the question, "Why are some pieces loved throughout the ages-- from the time of Bach and Vivaldi to the present-- while 'popular music' and faddish songs come and go, and are mostly forgotten after a few decades?

The master works of Bach and Beethoven will be known and loved for quite a long time, while the "popular songs" of 1750 and 1820 (whatever those were) are totally forgotten, except perhaps to a few scholars.

I think that's the question we are addressing on this thread, and not merely what makes a piece of music "liked" for a few years, or what makes a song rise to the "top ten" on AM radio.

The original question seems designed to help us think about what gives a piece of music some kind of staying power, which makes it last more than a century, or even longer. The question might also imply: What makes a piece of music seem to emerge out of eternity into our realm of time and space?

That's a question I would ask about many of Bach's Preludes and Fugues, or about Prokofiev's Third Symphony.

Freddymon, I'm not sure who spends more money and time on music,

men or women, but in general, that's got to be the # 1' hands on' hook of all time - oops

can I say that here?
 
Fredrick zinos said:

Roger I agree with your observation and would only add that to insure success, make sure the album cover shows plenty of cleavage

All excellent points, Ondib. I think you are correct in saying that it's only a matter of time before the "music programmers" lose all their power, and people choose their music individually based on what attracts them.

Also, I believe you are right that the "hook" phrnomenon was primarily tied to popular music. a way to quickly reel in the listener, so they would be fair game for the commercials, which was the whole point of the station anyway.

Both of these points are actually good for "serious music." Because classical music has an equal footing with all the other music on the internet, eventually more people will rediscover it.

As for the popular music of the classical eras, ("classical" in the broad sense), some of it does survive. Composers have always incorporated it into their music. Handel unashamedly used German beer songs. Many of these have also found their way into Lutheran hymnals. Then there are the achingly beautiful folk tunes of the British Isles. some of these are in my opinion among the most beautiful melodies ever written.

Ondib Olmnilnlolm said:

"...composing is just like fishing , you may have a bucket
full of bait, but without a hook, ya won't catch anything.
Record label rep's also have a major influence as to what gets played
on the air and how often - it's money and royalties."

I am not sure if that's true anymore. Maybe it was back before in some earlier time, in the last century, or in certain contexts.

I mean, how many people even listen to what's played "on the air," nowadays?

Aren't more and more people forsaking "the air" and "broadcast waves," and traditional radio and TV stations?

Would it be inaccurate to say that larger and larger numbers will soon choose their own music, based on their own criteria (rather than based on what "programmers," and record companies want them to hear)?

Also, comparing human beings to fish-- that is, suggesting that humans are merely unthinking animals who have not evolved beyond their Devonian age predecessors-- could be thought of as a bit degrading, even condescending.

Real music, certainly the ESSENCE of real music, has nothing to do with "money" or "royalties" -- much less does it have to do with "hooks" or any other pain causing object to be inserted into the flesh of the victim/listener.

Rather than "catching" the listener, as the hook catches the fish, I would suggest a slightly more appropriate analogy: music ATTRACTS the listener, as the aroma of a flower entices the humming bird. Even that is a rather crude analogy, in spite of the play on the word "humming."

True music has its effect on the mind, the intellect and the soul, and not merely on the physical body, the way a hook does.

So the question "Why are some pieces of music more liked than others," also implies the question, "Why are some pieces loved throughout the ages-- from the time of Bach and Vivaldi to the present-- while 'popular music' and faddish songs come and go, and are mostly forgotten after a few decades?

The master works of Bach and Beethoven will be known and loved for quite a long time, while the "popular songs" of 1750 and 1820 (whatever those were) are totally forgotten, except perhaps to a few scholars.

I think that's the question we are addressing on this thread, and not merely what makes a piece of music "liked" for a few years, or what makes a song rise to the "top ten" on AM radio.

The original question seems designed to help us think about what gives a piece of music some kind of staying power, which makes it last more than a century, or even longer. The question might also imply: What makes a piece of music seem to emerge out of eternity into our realm of time and space?

That's a question I would ask about many of Bach's Preludes and Fugues, or about Prokofiev's Third Symphony.

that's easy.... Willie's only a half nelson  Ozzie and the gang are full nelsons

                    but , I wouldn't wrestle with it too much :-()
 
Fredrick zinos said:

The thing I don't understand about Willie is how he was related to Ozzie and Harriet, David and Ricky.

Outstanding, Roger. However, I wonder if Fred didn't purposely set this up. It was a softball just begging to be swatted. but you got to it first, and hit a home run. (By the way, go Pirates).
roger stancill said:

that's easy.... Willie's only a half nelson  Ozzie and the gang are full nelsons

                    but , I wouldn't wrestle with it too much :-()
 
Fredrick zinos said:

The thing I don't understand about Willie is how he was related to Ozzie and Harriet, David and Ricky.

Bob, we are still in the early days of the internet, and the smorgasbord of choices it affords us. I think it's too early to conclude that classical won't experience a revival. The internet encourages individuality, while radio stations encourage conformity. That is what I mean by an equal footing. You mention cable. It's days too are numbered, as more options become available online. we have satellite, but are considering ditching it for the reasons you stated - out of over a hundred channels, I watch only a handful on a regular basis, and I'm getting pretty bored with those. All those stupid "reality shows." Hell, Dragnet or Emergency! were better reality shows.

No, you can still catch it on something called ME TV, where the ME stands for memorable entertainment. It's a broadcast channel, no cable needed. I watch Twilight Zone, Star Trek and The Fugitive on it. they also run Kojak, Canon and The Streets Of San Francisco, to mention a few more.

yeah, I thought the same thing as I was writing    but someones got to be the straight man  lol
 
michael diemer said Outstanding, Roger. However, I wonder if Fred didn't purposely set this up. It was a softball just begging to be swatted. but you got to it first, and hit a home run. (By the way, go Pirates).
roger stancill said:

that's easy.... Willie's only a half nelson  Ozzie and the gang are full nelsons

                    but , I wouldn't wrestle with it too much :-()
 
Fredrick zinos said:

The thing I don't understand about Willie is how he was related to Ozzie and Harriet, David and Ricky.

Does the aesthetics of a piece remain untouched over the centuries.

That would be the prerequisite, I think for a model where scores can be given out like in Ondib's example.

People love rubbish and intellectually and inferior music, beacause it easier to listen to.

That's why poeple rather listen to Canon in D by Pachalbel, than my latest Viking symphony I'm working on :)

I'm making a plan for it now, studying Sonata form. It will besplendid! :D

Will start composing in early spring.

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