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Hi, I'm new to this forum although I have been a member for a while now- just not had chance to come on here since I joined. As my first post hello to all! :-) I'm posting three original tracks. I write pop and rock music but for many years I always wanted to learn about writing for the orchestra but after searching the internet for resources I never seemed to really find anything that helpful. My understanding is that most really good instructive resources are degree/education courses and so are closed to public access. Links and advice to any books or sites would be greatly appreciated.


Here are my first efforts at moving towards that soundscape. It's pre-production. I'm working on re-recordings for a band album at the moment.

That Old Alchemy
https://soundcloud.com/pearldivers/that-old-alchemy-wip

Smoking Gun
https://soundcloud.com/pearldivers/smoking-gun-wip-060417

Whiskey with Sioux
https://soundcloud.com/pearldivers/whiskey-with-sioux-master

Thanks,

monks

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Thanks very much for the response and the links!I shall check them all out. Good news Dave that the resources are out there. After watching the videos to violin performances it seems that detache is the 'standard' way of playing...right? Getting a realistic sounding string section with samples and midi is a labour intensive process. I still hear adverts on the TV where I immediately know that it's using samples :-D Access to real musicians is way out of my reach I'm afraid. I do have a few study scores- I bought Ride of the Valkyries recently to look at what the strings were doing- all working together to produce that amazing result. Bob, the tracks are pre-production so yes, the vocals are a bit cockahoop anyway..I had a limited set of takes and had to process them way too much.Even knowing the right nomenclature is difficult. It's only because I studied for a diploma that I'm aware of terms such as 'instrumentation' and 'orchestration' etc. I know about things such as consecutive octaves and fifths...but I'm thinking that that's become less of strict rule in modern composition...it's an ear perception thing anyway since those intervals jump out of the 'mix'. A quick search no doubt would clarify things. I imagine it's still good practice. The e-book from DAW to score looks good Mike, but I'm going to have to buy a copy of Sibelius. The demo version I have would hold me back. I've have it in mind for a wee while to set up a virtual orchestra. I've squirrelled around and found recommendations on the best sample libraries. I use Kontakt and Vienna Instruments. I think there are samples for Sibelius as well...it's a bit of a mine field sourcing compatible DAWs and samples. I think having it all under Sibelius would probably be the easiest option. Whether it would provide the best sample sets is another matter. I'm not really clued up as to what works with what out there. I used to have Cubase but my license expired and I miss the scoring capabilities. But again...maybe that's duplicating the feature in Sibelius. My experience is that Sibelius is the best for scores, but I've not seen the latest releases of Cubase. Ideally I'd like a DAW like Cubase running Sibelius as a plugin or something.

I'm not going to argue with Nikola about this. There is just no way that I will be sued. It is reminiscent of it yes. I am aware of that. The oboe is one of the similarities. If you want to show me with notes on a stave where the law suit would originate from I'll comment then. Thanks for the replies guys. I'll get back to you all soon. :-)

I've listened to 'Fly away' and you may have a point regards the opening phrase of the melody. I don't know what the exact rules are but it's possibly close. That phrase could be changed a little. Other than that it's not plagiarism. You have six notes of similarity in an entire track with some overall impressionistic similarities. 

Haha...Nikola.... You actually made me laugh with that and now I feel that the tension of this thread has been lifted. Yes, you may have a point regards the first six lines of the melody. Calm down everybody bloody hell...:-)

I'm not taking sides here of course :-) I've just arrived streuth!...lol  It'd be useful if there was some info or links on the boards about plagiarism. I seem to remember somewhere that it was like there has to be two differences between the two. I'll reply more to everyone when I get a bit more time :-)

Can't be bothered to read all this, but do I need to torch some people?

Guys,
I'm not going to speak from a legal standpoint because I'm not qualified to do so.
However I can do it from a musical point of view and have to say that the first 4 bars from about 1' 15" in are exactly like One day. The harmony corresponds, the tune does and even the key (D major).
This does not mean Carl has plagiarised the original because the chord progression has been done to death over the last 60 odd years of popular culture. The production has nothing in common with the original niether. However the tune is very problematic and when combined with the harmony is verbatim.
A final test in legal terms might be as to whether the contentious track reminds the listener of the original track. I asked my wife (who is very musical) to listen to Carls' track without any context apart from asking what the tune was. She immediately picked up the Crawford song.
Carl, I am not accusing you of plagiarism, I used to work in advertising and was often asked to get close to temp tracks. I never got sued, but had to be consantly aware of subliminal influences, this may have happened here, but if you start makng millions from the track, you might well end up in court. My advice would be to at least change the tune and perhaps the key.

Hahaha...true enough :-) I'm recording this track for the album though and will make a small change to that phrase in the melody. 

Ray said:

The saving grace for Carl is, the comparatively poor production means no one will bother other than those hell bent on stirring shit.

Thanks for the words of advice Mike, yes the key was originally in Bm actually- it works better in that key as more sonorous but the singer's vocal range created problems. Having listened to it again and actually sat down and compared it I do agree.

Nikola said:

So, you're saying that Dave was actually wrong and tone deaf while saying that songs are completely different and that I don't have a proof that songs are almost same? 

I guess he can't defend his lack of talent anymore, but he will probably once again mention that I called that "plagiarism". LOL

Mike Hewer said:

Guys,
I'm not going to speak from a legal standpoint because I'm not qualified to do so.
However I can do it from a musical point of view and have to say that the first 4 bars from about 1' 15" in are exactly like One day. The harmony corresponds, the tune does and even the key (D major).
This does not mean Carl has plagiarised the original because the chord progression has been done to death over the last 60 odd years of popular culture. The production has nothing in common with the original niether. However the tune is very problematic and when combined with the harmony is verbatim.
A final test in legal terms might be as to whether the contentious track reminds the listener of the original track. I asked my wife (who is very musical) to listen to Carls' track without any context apart from asking what the tune was. She immediately picked up the Crawford song.
Carl, I am not accusing you of plagiarism, I used to work in advertising and was often asked to get close to temp tracks. I never got sued, but had to be consantly aware of subliminal influences, this may have happened here, but if you start makng millions from the track, you might well end up in court. My advice would be to at least change the tune and perhaps the key.

Thank you, Carl.  The "Old Alchemy" has a nice sound to it, and a kind of luxuriousness. 

In my opinion:

It's easy to be polite, professional, and comment upon pieces without inciting animus.

Only a bit of effort is needed. 

It's also easy to ignore offensive or rude posts. 

People "delete their accounts" and leave, for reasons of their own.  I wish Nikola would decide to stay. 

I think everyone has something to contribute. If some contributions seem to cause consternation, replies motivated by good will, and by and the desire for understanding, can result in improved comprehension of music in general. We can then enhance our appreciation of the aesthetic principles underlying the music.

Anything else, coming out of anger, negative feelings, or nihilism would appear to be beside the point.

Posts motivated by the desire to learn, by positive attitudes towards the participants, and by a sincere regard for the virtue of amity, would produce an overall enhancement of the discussion.

The Old Alchemy can be enjoyed for its texture and many other positive qualities.   I have nothing negative to say about it.  The other works I have not yet heard.

Thank you Serenity for the kind words. I seem to have walked into a 'situation' haha. No bother. It's amazing how quickly things can escalate on the net, and how quickly people can resolve things too. Anyway, thanks for listening.

Serenity Laine said:

Thank you, Carl.  The "Old Alchemy" has a nice sound to it, and a kind of luxuriousness. 

In my opinion:

It's easy to be polite, professional, and comment upon pieces without inciting animus.

Only a bit of effort is needed. 

It's also easy to ignore offensive or rude posts. 

People "delete their accounts" and leave, for reasons of their own.  I wish Nikola would decide to stay. 

I think everyone has something to contribute. If some contributions seem to cause consternation, replies motivated by good will, and by and the desire for understanding, can result in improved comprehension of music in general. We can then enhance our appreciation of the aesthetic principles underlying the music.

Anything else, coming out of anger, negative feelings, or nihilism would appear to be beside the point.

Posts motivated by the desire to learn, by positive attitudes towards the participants, and by a sincere regard for the virtue of amity, would produce an overall enhancement of the discussion.

The Old Alchemy can be enjoyed for its texture and many other positive qualities.   I have nothing negative to say about it.  The other works I have not yet heard.

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