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Peter, the last I heard Cheney was on a book tour. His new book is

titled, 'In My Time'. I think the title should have been, 'Doing my Time',

and he should have been booked.

The prison system has become big business, and I think even you,

like Mr. Clinton, can buy a franchise and earn huge profits.... just like

McDonalds   :-{}                                          RS

Peter, I just got off the phone with my broker(not really)

he say's the next big dividend stock may be investing in FEMA camps,

I asked him about buying into underground bases, and all he did was laugh at me.  RS

Peter Brown said:

Hey Roger,

Yeah. I'm looking for just that kind of investment. Problem is, by the time I get to profit from my investment, the laws and rules of the investment game will have changed. As you might know, McD's stocks have fallen globally over the last couple quarters. And the jig is up (or very well soon be) on the prison/inmate populations growing for profit and investment opportunities. No, Mr. Clinton will soon need to rearrange his investment speculations if he doesn't want to loose earnings in the near and not too distant future. But I digress. You do make a valid point.  

Hello Roger,


You said,


"Ha Ha O O, that is kinda funny  and I agree, baffoon could be a useful wordin this day and age. It must have been a 'Floridian' slip... you know, like when you have an idea of what you want to say, which in this case was 'primative thinking clown'. BTW- don't bother looking up Floridian slip, I made that up too. It's a combination of Freudian slip and a 'senior moment' ( there are a lot of old folks in Florida).  All this can be added to the fact that I jes cain't spel verry gud."


That's all very well said, and I think the term "Floridian slip" has its uses.  As for spelling, I still believe that English language orthography is a problem for the language as a whole, and reform is long overdue.  Your spelling of the words "I jes cain't spel verry gud" is just as appropriate, or more appropriate, for those words than what is commonly used now.  I only dislike spelling errors, usually, when they impede comprehension.  For instance, writing


"FR4 skuAr 'm zEb'm geers, ! gugo"  (instead of)


"four score and seven years ago" 


The first version is harder to read.




"for scor an sevn yirz ago"


would be fine.


On the subject of UFO's.  I wonder what your opinion might be about the:


1976 Tehran UFO incident


Here is some of the primary documentation:


I am inviting you to share any opinion you might have about UFO phenomena in general.  Opinions might range from:


1.  These phenomena can all be explained as caused by weather events, balloons, swamp gas, temperature inversions, misperceptions of meteors or planets (esp. Venus and Jupiter) or ordinary aircraft.


2.  There are a significant number that cannot be explained by the above, and therefore, in some cases we must admit there are simply "unidentified" phenomena which are not understood.


3.  Some objects are described and witnessed in such a way as to leave little doubt that these are highly advanced craft independently controlled by an intelligence or intelligences, perhaps foreign governments or our government.


4.  Some of these objects appear to be of such a nature that the "extraterrestrial hypothesis" (that these craft are powered and directed by beings from other planets or star systems) seems the best explanation.


5.  Some objects are definitely known not to be of this earth, since alien bodies and alien spacecraft have been recovered from crash sites and studied by governments.


6.  Beings from alien civilizations on other worlds are constantly visiting Earth and departing, and are in contact with our governments, and even living on our planet, and this known by governments.


Which of the above six views runs mostly closely to your own?


Another question for consideration is this:


Which of the following is the best candidate for consideration as "most beautiful symphony written in recent history":


1.  Galina Ivanovna Ustvolskaya's Symphony No. 1


2.  Vermuellen's Symphony No. 5


3.  Wellesz' Symphony No. 2


4.  Shostakovich's Symphony No.  10


5.  Prokofiev's Symphony No. 6


6.  [Another unnamed work]. 





Ondib, In response to your second question first.... I will pass. I am not qualified to

comment, and do not wish to allocate the time to listen to and determine a winner

from your suggestions.Tho' I have listened to a lot of music over the years, it is a

puddle compared to the ocean of music there is to listen to.

As for Question # 1....    Does the phrase 'serendipitous syncronicity' resonsonate with you?

Yes, I follow a lot of things outside the box. To give you some idea of of what I think is going on, that most are not

aware of, I will refer you to this video.

I have watched many videos of a similar vein, including Paul Hellier(the past defense minister of Canada)

and altho this is a longer interview, I think you may see the integrity and value of it. Simon Parkes has lead

an interesting life and I don't believe he is a fraud. The Symphony just gets better and  better.     RS 

FRed, who what why when where?


I have asked Fredrick to stop making ethnocentric remarks and Islamophobic comments several times.  Others have asked him to stop. Now I feel obliged to ask him to retract a statement, alleging in effect that I support such acts as "hacking a person to death," and that I condone other types of extremist actions committed by militant groups.  Recently, Fredrick, you wrote a post accusing me of being part of a group of Muslims supporting violence, which you know I have never done.   I have said, several times, that I am not a Muslim, much less am I a member of any sectarian  social or religious group that supports violence, and you know this. Frankly, what you have alleged amounts to libel, slander and/or acting as a "false witness." 


You said,


"By the way, I suppose congratulations are in order for Al Quida muslims in India hacking to death a blogger with whom they disagree. It is clear that the "we" to whom you refer is yourself and other muslims who not only condone violence but who by their inaction actively abet it."


You can read my reply to your allegation on the thread,


Re: False accusations that a forum member supports "Muslim" violence and hacking people to death; Ethnocentric/prejudiced remarks



There, Tyler said,


"If you have a complaint that you would like to make towards a member or about a member please contact the moderators directly as we do not want to create a spectacle out of public discourse. The threads need to remain clear and allow us to deal with these issues privately."


On the above named thread, I said, amongst other things,


"It's one thing to attempt to insult people, but another thing entirely to falsely accuse people of crimes or criminal activity, or to accuse a person of condoning, or being a part of a group, that condones criminal activity."


I personally think it should have been enough to post what I did on the thread, to initiate discussion of this issue amongst the moderators.  Perhaps it was enough.  But Tyler seems to want the process to be a bit more formal. I don't like the idea of sending formal statements into moderators about the words of another forum participant.  This seems serious, however.  So, I have on this occasion sent in a "complaint", in hopes of encouraging a discussion amongst moderators as to what the guidelines are regarding the making of false accusations about another person allegedly supporting seriously criminal activity. In today's political climate, it is no light matter to falsely accuse a person of supporting violence, extremist acts, or groups that commit such acts on a wide scale. Essentially the complaint corresponds to the material on the above mentioned thread, which has been closed down.


I thought I would say all this to give Frederick fair notice.  I hope that he will, at the very least, formally pledge to stop making ethnically or culturally prejudicial statements (Islamophobic statements are those I cite in particular).  I would also especially like to see him pledge to cease making accusations to the effect that anyone here supports criminal activity (like hacking people to death), or that anyone here has advocated lawless violence against people, most especially when no evidence exists to support such an accusation.  (And, in fact, where there is so much evidence to the contrary).


hey Fred, you rudian, how many goats you got now?

better play nice and be a bit more intuitive to other peoples

sensitivities, you crusty old troublemaker, or you'll end up

'overboard'.    RS   (respectfully sarcastic)

Hello Roger,


You said,


"Ondib, In response to your second question first.... I will pass. I am not qualified to comment, and do not wish to allocate the time to listen to and determine a winner from your suggestions.Tho' I have listened to a lot of music over the years, it is a puddle compared to the ocean of music there is to listen to."


Understandable.  I was not suggesting that anyone listen to all of the works mentioned, if they have not heard any of them, or some of them already.  However, I did leave a blank, at the end.  See No. 6


1.  Galina Ivanovna Ustvolskaya's Symphony No. 1


2.  Vermuellen's Symphony No. 5


3.  Wellesz' Symphony No. 2


4.  Shostakovich's Symphony No.  10


5.  Prokofiev's Symphony No. 6


6.  [Another unnamed work]. 


One could fill in any work which one might consider as a candidate for "THE most beautiful symphony in recent history."




"As for Question # 1....    Does the phrase 'serendipitous syncronicity' resonsonate with you?"


The psychologist Carl Jung uses the term synchronicity to refer to psychological phenomena that appear to occur by chance, but which might have a deeper significance, in relation to such "paranormal" activities or abilities, as telekinesis, precognition, telepathy and clairvoyance, or other experiences qualified as quasi-spiritual or mythological, in relation to his theory of archetypes.  He wrote an entire book on "Flying Saucers," during the 1940's. I believe he argues that "flying saucers" are modern psychological projections of the collective unconscious. I don't think he considers them either illusory or real, in the ordinary sense of those words; but he sees them as having meaningful significance for people as archetypes do.  But it's a long time since I read his theory on that subject.  I am not sure how sympathetic I would be to his argument now.


 You said,  I will refer you to this video. 


I don't know that particular video, though I did read von Daniken's book a long time ago, and found it interesting; in my memory, it remains more as a "science fiction" idea than as a presenting a well formed hypothesis for consideration.  I am not opposed, in principle, to a theory concerning "influences," of certain types. 


"I have watched many videos of a similar vein, including Paul Hellier (the past defense minister of Canada) and altho this is a longer interview, I think you may see the integrity and value of it."


I find Paul Hellier's statements (a number of them at least) to be quite interesting.  Much of what he has said seems believable to me, when put side by side with evidence in books like that written by Timothy Good (Above Top Secret, which is well documented).  [Much of what has been written about the Bentwaters-Woodbridge (Rendlesham Forest) case interests me.  That was the largest US Air force installation in the world at one time, and my father was stationed there in the 1950s. ]  I have heard quite a bit of what Paul Hellier has said (It's interesting, in part, because he appears to be the highest level government official in any nation who has said anything so dramatic about extraterrestrial intelligence and UFO's—though Podesta, Lord Hill-Norton, certain French, US and UK high level military and intelligence officials have made similar statements).


 "Simon Parkes has lead an interesting life and I don't believe he is a fraud. The Symphony just gets better and  better.     RS"


I'll take a look at the video.  Thanks for the link.







Fredrick said,

"OO's "outrage" is sparked solely  by the above list of Jewish v. Arab Nobel prize winners. 165 to 6. Kind of a lopsided score. Sometimes facts are insulting."

What 'outrage?'   I find nothing offensive in the list.  What facts are insulting?  I find nothing insulting in any facts you have mentioned (I would like you to make an effort to supply us with more facts, actually).

I am not sure what conclusions you can legitimately make, based on the list, however.  That people should favor Jews generally over Arabs, or that people who practice Islam deserve less respect than those who practice Judaism?   Perhaps that's what you want to say.  My view is that Arabs and Jews; Muslims and people who practice the Jewish faith, are worthy of equal respect.  More on the list below.


"hey OO I've asked you repeatedly to identify the other members of the "we" you keep referring to ..."


Yes, repeatedly.  And I have repeatedly answered you.  You can look back, and you will see that I said, " 'we' may rightly ask what it is that you genuinely believe?"

I asked this because you had laid down so many unsubstantiated and contradictory statements.  (Still no answer on any of them, really).  Then, more than once, I explained that "we" referred to members of the forum.   You can ask seven more times if you like.  The answer won't change.  And yet ... "we" have no reason to expect that you will not ask again.   

[Here "we" refers to any of "us" who might be reading this particular thread, not to be confused with the entire population of the Muslim World, or any sect or subsect of any religious grouping—please photocopy and keep this definition of "we" in your wallet, and tape a copy to your forehead, so you will see it when you look in the mirror].


You said,


"here is a list of Arab Nobel prize winners compared with Jewish* Nobel prize winners. I understand that for you OO this is "Islamophobic" 


Then you understand incorrectly.  Publishing a list is not what makes a set of statements Islamophobic.  The term is explained below (once again), because it seems you have not even looked the word up, or understood what it means, in either common or specialized parlance.  I quoted the dictionary definition, and you ignored it.


You also understood incorrectly, when you asked,  "isn't torture and death to anyone who doesn't agree with you, a central doctrine of your "faith?"


It's a funny question, and I almost burst out laughing as a read it.   You know very well how often I have spoken out against torture on this site.  You also know that

I have praised Gandhi and Tolstoy for their express views on, and opposition to war and violence and killing, which coincide closely with mine.  So it's an absurd question from the start. 


Your first two numbered propositions suffer from serious defects, logically, or what's worse, as being based on erroneous assumptions about how to define words.  The third one, the statement that you are "not Jewish," is irrelevant.    


1) Ilamophobic is not the correct word since the suffix "phobic" connotes fear of..

Islamophobic is the correct word.  Look it up in a modern dictionary (More said about that below).

2) "ethnocentrisitc" is not the right word either since it only connotes focusing attention on...

Yes, "ethnocentrisitc" is not the word.  The proper word is ETHNO-CENTRIC. You may look that up, too.

3) I am not Jewish.

One doesn't have to be Jewish to be prejudiced for or against Jews, nor does one have to be Jewish to be prejudiced for or against Arabs and Muslims.   If you a White Anglo-Saxon American (and I don't know if you are), or a mixed Hispanic, Greco-American, or any other type of racially blended person, that says nothing about your attitudes toward any race.  I am not even accusing you of "being a racist," or of being an "Islamophobe."  I am asserting that you have made statements that can reasonably considered "ethnocentric" or "Islamophobic."  That is all.    


I am very sorry, Fredrick, but your last post seems to reflect some very severe misunderstandings.  You appear to want to infer that because I can and do speak well of many Arabs and Muslims (as well as I do of many Hindus, Christians, Taoists, Buddhists and members of other faiths) that I must therefore have some animosity towards Jews.  You thought I would find your decision to highlight great figures of Jewish scientific, literary and philosophical culture somehow offensive? You thought I would find it "insulting?"  Spinoza is one of my favorite philosophers.  I remain puzzled at what that recent post was supposed to be all about.


What does "So here's the list OO. Something for you to be proud of" MEAN?


I have considerable Jewish ancestry, so is that why I should be proud of the list?  Or are  you speaking ironically, because you think I am an Arab, or a Muslim, and that I should personally be ashamed that more Arab or Muslim names are not on the list?


I don't know if you're aware of the fact, but "Islamophobic" is word coined relatively recently, and it has a precise meaning in describing certain types of discourse.  It refers to the expression of an attitude that includes "fear of, or dislike of Muslims," as a people.  That is to say, if one dislikes a person, or conceives an immediate negative feeling or prejudice against someone, merely based on the fact that the person is a Muslim, then the sentiment in question is designated "Islamophobia."  It's tantamount to sexism (prejudice against a person, due to their gender), homophobia (due to their sexual orientation), or racism (due to a person's race), etc.   (Your dismissal of the term because it has the root word "phobia" in it, is irrelevant, since "fear" and "hatred" are part of the definition as it is commonly used and defined).


Collins English dictionary defines Islamophobia as,


"hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture"


So why do you appear to think that I love Arabs and Muslims, but not Jews?


I love Jews. I also love many Muslims and Christians, as well as people of no particular faith tradition.  I have a large number of Jewish relatives, descended from the Jewish community that once inhabited the city of Bialystok, a place that was in the early 20th century, a part of the Russian Empire, and which is today part of Poland. Some escaped the pogroms, and are spread throughout parts of the US, though others were killed by the Hitlerian genocide.  I congratulate the vast majority of people who have won Nobel prizes, whether they are Jewish or not.  In addition to Jews, I love many Muslims too, students of mine through many years of teaching in Turkey. Muslims and Arabs, also, have been killed in huge numbers by Western imperialist actions in North Africa and the Middle East, by the millions. Their deaths should grieved as much of those deaths of any others killed in large scale wars.  My landlord in Turkey was an Arab, originally from Egypt, a lovely man.


If you think Arabs or Muslims are dirt, or are inferior, because they have not won many Nobel prizes, then what does that make you or me, or all the people on this forum, and their relatives, and people in their communities, and their nations, who have not won any Nobel Prizes?  I doubt you have won that prestigious award. And if you haven't won any Nobel Prizes, then how much better are you than "the average Arab or Muslim"? 



I think we do well to learn to love and appreciate people from all races, ethnicities and religious groups.  The question of why there are more Jewish than Arab recipients of the Nobel prize is not really relevant to your having made statements which are ethnocentric and/or Islamophobic.  [ The question of why more Arabs have not won the prize can be answered by reference to a great number of historical, sociological and economic factors, especially events that have occurred since the acme of Islamic civilization, prior to the rise of the West.  If you want to tarnish the whole of Arab civilization, based on your Nobel list, are you going to want to do the same with Black Africa, South Asia, Chinese, Indigenous Americans, and all other civilizations which people might want to denigrate?  You appear just to have it out for Muslims and Arabs  at this particular moment.]


But this seems to be a diversion, from the main point, which was your use of most recently your use of the term "Muslim mumbo jumbo" and your failure to distinguish any such unspecified allegations about nonsense, from your own "mumbo jumbo" by which I mean very specific unsubstantiated and unprovable statements about the nature of law, the justice system, economics and human nature. 


Of course, the term "mumbo jumbo" itself is a racist one, so I would avoid it, since its derivation is from the "name of an idol supposedly worshipped by certain tribes in Africa."  I would not use it here, since it may be considered rude to Africans and/or people of African descent on this forum.


I also think you would do well to retract any statements you have made to the effect that people here have supported violent acts, such as "hacking people to death," as you accused me of doing.    


Are you all right, Fredrick?

Maybe we should pause this discussion, because I don't think I am the only one who might be genuinely concerned about you.

No, I'm serious, Fredrick.

Are you okay?

Please reassure the forum that you genuinely okay.

Eh Peter, might as well let it roll. If things don't get resolved here and now,

they'll just resurface in the next thread.

Maybe we should invoke the Composers Accord rule, and ask them to sit out

and refrain from posting for a measure or two. :<)    RS

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