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If you follow classical music news like I do you would have seen some very troubling headlines.

Osmo Vänskä's departure shakes Minnesota Orchestra

If you are not familiar with the on going issues the Minnesota Orchestra has had with their Board of Directors you should definitely look it up to fully understand how it got to where they are now

New York City Opera Shuts Its Doors

CANCELLED: Carnegie Hall Live: Opening Night Gala With The Philadel...

Without An Angel Donor, The Detroit Symphony Orchestra Could Go Dark

keep in mind this orchestra is currently accepting scores for a new competition. 

Many blame changing audience taste, crazy new music, MTV culture, shorten attentions spans, snobbishness of symphony goes, and high ticket prices for the decline in audience sizes at the symphony. All legit reasons but their seems to be a bigger problem at hand, a problem from within many failing orchestras, opera companies, and professional performing ensembles. While each situation is different, an underline theme that I see throughout each of these performing groups is some kind of mismanagement. It appears that many orchestras have yet to keep up with the times and run their business as they did 100 years ago. So what can be done?

What do you think is the main issue for these failing performance ensembles? What do you think needs to be changed?

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this is merely a SYMPTOM of a larger, progressive disease... that has been slowly eating away at american core values for a very long time. It is only now starting to be completely visible to see the effects of the disease.

there is a general state of anti-intellectualism in america, there always has been, but it keeps slowly growing.

WE all know that classical music, and studyign it, and appreciating it... is the very ROOTS of all good music.

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things like "punk rock" music? and generic "pop"? THEY are allways extolling the virtues of it... simplistic, easy to perform, easy to listen to...

me?? I can hardly stand to listeb to very much of "nahh nahh NAHH NAHH nahh nahh NAHHHHHHHH.... punk rock "drop d tuning" one finger power chord "anthems"... a little here and there is fine, but whole albums of it?? *urk*

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the kids slowly GET IT though... i have been around many young kid musicians.. they start OUT playing the simple stuff... covering easy popular tunes... THEN they start to get some TASTE in their music listening...

FLOYD

ERIC JOHNSON

QUEEN

(old) QUEENSRYCHE

and they sit around, wondering HOW in the *&^% one LEARNS to DO THAT??

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i keep explaining, those musicians either have backgrounds studying classical music?? Or, they have engaged in a lifetime program of SELF study, to the point they reach the same end...

but, the dang KIDS believe everything they hear or read in an interview... they believe its all a matter of "talent" and if they "want it" bad enough and they are "talented", they just one day start MAKING music like this...

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I cant get them to understand? you can HEAR the "big", the "important", the "scary" sounds... in things like Beethovens 5th... and that to STUDY how that is DONE... is to LEARN how to bring it to a ROCK format.

they have all had it drilled into their heads, that songwriters are "supposed to" just sit around, strum chords, hum softly to them... and write lyrics over soft CHORDS they strum... and that *magic* will happen...

i cant get it across to them, that "obeying" the "rules" of writing hum-chords-lyrics pop music? will not lead to making a "big" piece (like floyd or queensryche?) any more than you can sit around, smoke pot and drink beer... and learn to carve a statue anything similar to michaelangelos david...

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its not just music... its EVERYthing...everyone is convinced that education and hard work dont count for anything... that you just need this "great idea" and all of a sudden something magical happens....

Back when the song "name" was out? Goo goo dolls? I was older, and i VAGUELY rememberd the name "goo goo dolls" from my youth... they were a punk rock sort of thing back then... a flash in the pan...

I explained to the kids? THAT guy went away, into OBSCURITY... but? he always wanted to be "something" in music... he waited tables, he delivered pizza... and spent like 10 to 15 YEARS actually studying and learning how to songwrite professionally....

the NEXT time the planets lined up? and he had a CHANCE again? He was READY.... and he NOW had a skill set from doing WORK and STUDYING...

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but, the KIDS (the young musicians...) all think its a matter of getting some special "producer" or "manager" that takes their little 3chord "ditties" and siply goes into the studio, and turns it by magic into some big production (like floyd or queensryche)...

and you cant tell them otherwise.

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classical music is "for sissies"...

actual college education?? Thats for "making you stupid" or "making you so smart your stupid"...

very few people are WILLING to do any real longterm WORK towards ANY GOAL... and of those that ARE?? its rare they get exposed to someone or something that encourages them to do it...

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it all starts in grade school to middle school... in 2nd grade? almost ALL the kids are getting good grades and actually doing work...

fast forward to 5th grade? The "cool kids" make fun of the "sissies" that get good grades... plenty of parents make fun of intellectual stuff in front of their kids and teach it to them...

*you cant fight that*

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parents that say things like "got me a 42 dollar an hour job! I made 85 grand last year!! I didnt grad-you-di-gate the 8th grade... and i done FINE! Book learnin dont teach you nuttin !!!"

i have a buddy? he never finished high school... he picked up a phrase from Ted Nugent... "while everyon else was getting an education?? I was too busy LEARNING THINGS to be bothered with that..."

Everytime he repeats this phrase? I ask him... "what EXACTLY ARE these many things you were learning?"

(he gets mad, and doesnt have an answer)

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its really funny in a sick way? because he taught himself to play some guitar?? and he cant figure out what to "do" next... when you can barely read and write in your 20s?? Its sort of a lost cause to some extent...

he HONESTLY thinks, that if he reads about music theory? it will somehow "ruin" his ability to sing and play guitar...

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people always ask me how i learned about THIS, or, how i figured out THAT... various subjects... I always explain...

"You know, those things? I forget what they are called..."

"what things?"

"YOU know, those things... its like, paper is folded over? they have words on them? whatare those things called?"

ventually some says "you mean BOOKS?"

"YEAH! Books... THATS where i learned about it !"

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then 20 minutes later? they are back to makig fun of me for having 2 college degrees... its hysterically funny.

"But, I done made THIS much last year! How smart are YOU then??"

"I can read and write, you simpleton.", LMAO

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it WASNT always like this... not to the extent it is today.... but, it has PERVADED our society slowly, top to bottom... a complete state of ANTI-intellectualism.

Much truth in the previous reply. Ever see the movie The Time Machine? (The original one - or, you may have actually read the book, although that's unlikely in these anti-intellectual times). Remember how the people in the future were? Completely in the moment, eating, then lying around, sleeping, doing it all again tomorrow? You couldn't even have a conversation with them, they were so vacant. That's where we're headed.

Michael, who was it that said, 'without vision the people will perish'?

     The drug culture and political climate of the 60's and 70's had their 'vision',     and a lot of interesting music and styles came to be.

     I remember wondering if groups like Pink Floyd and the Who for instance would

     start a trend toward longer more sophisticated works. I'm guessing the' money'

     just wasn't there. I think there was and is plenty of talent on the planet, but not

    enough reward in the pursuit.

    I saw the movie and read the Classic Comic book version(remember them) and always thought the    2 races merely represented the extremes of human nature , whereas most of us

    huddle somewhere in between. - and will most likely forever.    Pop is here to stay, it's where the money is. Art tho' does seem to be a dying art.

    What's your vision?

 

 

   

 

Do the folks in the mid-east realize this ? 

Frederick, I totally agree.... It seems every generation seeks it's own identity and has

to live through the cycle. That seems true with music as well. I remember watching

the Beatles first appearance on a B&W TV -on the Ed Sullivan Show and my parents

asking " You like that stuff?" So now I don't worry so much about what my son listens to....

I know he will grow up to rise above it.

Fredrick zinos said:

Though I am sympathetic to SEDstars point of view, it is probably good to keep in mind that his post could have been written 50 years ago, or 500 or 2500. Each generation decries the folly of it successors and yet Armageddon is no closer now than it was in Plato's day.  

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. See The Weimar Republic for further details.

Composer685 said,

"The elite wants to shut down the art.

"Why? Since the art shows the difference between good and evil, between beauty and ugliness. Because the art makes you think."

I think this is very true, unless we see art as little more than entertainment and diversion.

As for the "The History of Western Civilization- A Druid's View," I thought it was a very good course, though perhaps a bit difficult.

If such knowledge could be used to help composers produce works like Stravinsky's "Sacre du Printemps," and Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite" --to facilitate the creation of works of art that capture the essence of so-called "primitive cultures" --then the horizons of art could be further extended, with regard to time and prehistory.

It's true that "the elite" do not want people to have meaningful knowledge of what happened ten years ago, much less knowledge of history and the best that other cultures have to offer.

People don't reject Beethoven simply because it might seem hard to listen to, at first; they reject classical composers of the past because they are taught that the past has no meaning.

I can cite a few reference materials: Walter Lippmann on Public Opinion. Reinhold Niehbur on Necessary Illusions. Leo Strauss on Noble Lies.

I might also mention: Edward Bernays on Public Relations, Propaganda, and the manipulation of public opinion. Noam Chomsky on Manufacturing Consent. Lies My (History) Teacher Told Me - by James Loewen. And then there is: American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns; The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and the Heroic Newspaper That Tried to Report It.

You say every school you know has history courses.

But perhaps many of those courses were not really teaching history.

If Ford was at all insightful when he said, "history is bunk" then perhaps they were teaching bunk.

As far as music is concerned, we might be losing the thread.

I didn't say Art isn't entertaining, but I suggested, along with Composer685, that True Art was probably more than that.

Do individuals get to decide?

Do they get to decide to make "more or less" of Beethoven?

I suppose they do, but what does that have to do with aesthetics or a general critique of judgment, or with changing audience taste, crazy new music, MTV culture, shortened attentions spans, snobbishness of symphony goers, and high ticket prices resulting in the decline in audience sizes at the symphony?

In answer to the question, did Ford actually say, "History is bunk?"

I quote:

History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present, and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history that we make today.

Source

Henry Ford. 1916. Chicago Tribune

Henry Ford actually said this in a number of different ways in a number of different places; but this one is from a solid source.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/quotations/qt/quote33.htm

K.P.D.Q., if what you state is true, then how do you explain and

                account for 'has beens' ?
 
Kristofer P.D.Q. Emerig said:

Your point here, philosophically speaking that is, is tighter than Kelsey's nuts.

If our individual worlds can be no more than a perceptual experience, how could they exist prior to that experiencing? It's therefore an absolute absurdity to elect a precept for reflection which predates the inception of perception.

 

Speaking of which, your perceived universe actually began in utero, some months prior to your birthdate, but that's a debate for another forum. 
 
Fredrick zinos said:

 

The other thing wrong with your citation is that it claims Henry uttered these words in 1916. 1916? Improbable since the world didn't begin until much later, in fact by a stellar coincidence, the world, the stars the cosmos and all of creation began the day I was born. 

mister E- I 'groc' the ramifications and parameters of the eternal NOW;

and am a frequent flyer and visitor myself. Tho' the last time I closed

my eyes in route and actually stubbed my tao.

Are you a fan of Bashar  or self enlightened ? lol
 
Kristofer P.D.Q. Emerig said:

Roger, the Great Tao moves inexorably through time. Nothing has been, nor will be. Just one swirling mosaic, continuously and continually tranformed.
 
roger stancill said:

K.P.D.Q., if what you state is true, then how do you explain and

                account for 'has beens' ?
 
Kristofer P.D.Q. Emerig said:

Your point here, philosophically speaking that is, is tighter than Kelsey's nuts.

If our individual worlds can be no more than a perceptual experience, how could they exist prior to that experiencing? It's therefore an absolute absurdity to elect a precept for reflection which predates the inception of perception.

 

Speaking of which, your perceived universe actually began in utero, some months prior to your birthdate, but that's a debate for another forum. 
 
Fredrick zinos said:

 

The other thing wrong with your citation is that it claims Henry uttered these words in 1916. 1916? Improbable since the world didn't begin until much later, in fact by a stellar coincidence, the world, the stars the cosmos and all of creation began the day I was born. 

I thought this thread had died a ways back, but I see it has risen, Tucson-like, from its ashes. I must weigh in however, as cosmic ideas are being discussed. The Hoosier Kid is right, there is no such thing as Time. Thus, there actually is no history either. For what is time? Nothing more than a way we measure the movements of celestial bodies. A day? One rotation of the earth. A year? one revolution of earth around sun. And so on. All there really is, is stuff moving around in space. Ah, but we live in the imaginary world of the mind! Observer-created reality. No less real, for being an illusion. To quote Mike Pinder, philosopher-ex-keyboardist for the Moody Blues: "Red is Gray, and Yellow, White, but we decide which is right, and which is an illusion. (Days Of Future Passed). " So there really is history, and time, as long as we remember that thay are mental constructs. So mock on, mock on, Zino, Stancil, Emerig, etc. (To paraphrase some Dead Poet. I could google it, but why bother)?

Thanks for the belly laughs, Fred, I needed them.

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