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There is a hidden secret about these great Rabbinical Masters. Many of them, besides been spiritual leaders, were also composers and musicians. One such Rabbi is the founder of the Chabad movement the renowned Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi. Here is an example of one of his compositions:

Daled Bavos: The Alter Rebbe's Nigun The song has four stanzas, corresponding to the four spiritual worlds. One famous fact about him that he was a child prodigy, and he mastered the entire Talmud by the age of 6. 

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That's a fair point gregorio and of course bias and antisemitism have their odious parts to play. My point was that if this music is being touted by Saul as the Jewish equivalent of Bach's there is an enormous divide!

gregorio X said:

Charles, you mention:

"I would assume that such Jewish religious music has remained obscure because composers like Bach were considerably better!"

not necessarily..

Remember that the Jewish community wasn't so well accepted in Europe for many centuries.. (to say the least)  and that for instance, although Mendelssohn's  grandfather was a great Jewish philosopher/scholar, Felix ended up converting to christianity to have his music more easily played/accepted...

I fail to see where you found within my words making any comparison between Bach and The Rebbe from Liadi?

One is a composer by choice and profession, the other is a composer of melodies for spiritual advancement and meditation. 

There is no competition, each has a time a place and beauty of its own.

Charles Holt said:

That's a fair point gregorio and of course bias and antisemitism have their odious parts to play. My point was that if this music is being touted by Saul as the Jewish equivalent of Bach's there is an enormous divide!

gregorio X said:

Charles, you mention:

"I would assume that such Jewish religious music has remained obscure because composers like Bach were considerably better!"

not necessarily..

Remember that the Jewish community wasn't so well accepted in Europe for many centuries.. (to say the least)  and that for instance, although Mendelssohn's  grandfather was a great Jewish philosopher/scholar, Felix ended up converting to christianity to have his music more easily played/accepted...

Charles,

If you read my initial post, the word memory is not mentioned anywhere. I don't see what you are arguing about, as for me, I'm not arguing with you or with anyone else. If the music speaks to you and is enjoyable, say something about it, if not and is uninteresting, you can also say nothing, its up to you, either way , have a great evening.



Charles Holt said:

You are trying to compare very different disciplines. Quite possibly the rabbi had an eidetic memory and whilst that would be useful in advancing ones skill in music it is nothing at all to do with compositional excellence or the lack thereof, and memorising the talmud would be a subjective thing to label "genius"!. There are humans alive today who can perform astounding feats of memory and recall but they would be unlikely to do well as composers.

You say this isn't about religion but I disagree. The fact that this composer was a rabbi is a factor that you are advancing as noteworthy for the music certainly is not. Were this melody composed by someone unimportant to you it would not have been presented here today. You mentioned using music for spiritual advancement which is another very subjective idea indeed. Since these spiritual leaders could by your reckoning have achieved greatness comparable to Bach and they were using music for spiritual advancement I have to wonder why they didn't get a lot better at it for the maximum spiritual advancement possible, for example many early advances in astronomy were made by Muslims through their own religious observance. Or middle english sacred choral music is generally regarded as the exemplar of the form.

Either the music is of note because it is particularly fine - on which my opinion is clear I think! - or because it was generated by a rabbi who himself was noteworthy for his feats of memory.

Saul Dzorelashvili said:

I never said that he was a prodigy in music. And as I explained before, Bach's profession was been a composer, and these Rabbi's were Spiritual leaders not composers per a job or a profession, and no one tried to compare the two.

Had any one of these Rabbi's had chosen a career in classical music composition I'm sure that they would have achieved universal recognition no less then Bach or any of the other greats, but this was not their objective at all.

Reading about these remarkable people would give you a perspective on their brilliance and very remarkable abilities.

Mastering the entire Talmud for example at age six is by far more difficult then anything imaginable that any human being can do or achieve. Youre talking about thousands of pages of the most difficult texts with exceedingly difficult analytic requirements to master them, and he did it by the age of six. Just imagine if he directed his unbelievable genius towards music, you would have had a totally different perspective and opinion.

Regards,

Rabbi Shlomo Carelbach, a German Rabbi and Composer. Had written many works, he also performs them.

He was a genius with phenomenal memory, after completing his religious studies he embarked in a career of composition, and performance. Born in Germany he moved to the states when he was a teenage, he then moved to Israel where he lead a community of fans and supporters. 

I did Saul but the problem is you don't seem to have discussion in mind. The music does not strike me as particularly good. It's not bad either. It is very average and of course this seems the ideal forum to say that but when I did you said

"Mastering the entire Talmud for example at age six is by far more difficult then anything imaginable that any human being can do or achieve. Youre talking about thousands of pages of the most difficult texts with exceedingly difficult analytic requirements to master them, and he did it by the age of six. Just imagine if he directed his unbelievable genius towards music, you would have had a totally different perspective and opinion."

The rabbis other achievements are not the issue in a discussion on music but you are trying to argue from them not only the brilliance of the man - which I question as I would question any dogmatic achievement in the field of theology - but the POTENTIAL brilliance of his music if he had ever decided to pursue it directly! Leading me back to my point that the music is noteworthy only because it came from someone you admire and not through any particular excellence in itself.

Your admiration at his "unbelievable genius" and portrayal of his achievement as "by far more difficult then anything imaginable that any human being can do or achieve" betrays a significant bias which of course is why discussion isn't happening. You are saying that six year old schneur mastering the talmud was the most difficult thing ANY HUMAN BEING CAN DO! so of course you are not going to appreciate critique on any aspect of his works.

Saul Dzorelashvili said:

If the music speaks to you and is enjoyable, say something about it, if not and is uninteresting, you can also say nothing, its up to you, either way , have a great evening.

Right here Saul and in case you want to claim you were not talking specifically about the rabbi this was from a post expanding on his background and context of his music :)

"While Bach made Christian music famous, Jewish religious music was almost unheard of, except for some works by Solomon Rossi from the Renaissance Period, these songs and melodies have not seen a wider audience, thanks to the internet and youtube these works are available for a wider audience"



Saul Dzorelashvili said:

I fail to see where you found within my words making any comparison between Bach and The Rebbe from Liadi?

He seems more of a singer-songwriter than composer. Again the bar seems set quite low by my opinion.

Saul Dzorelashvili said:

Rabbi Shlomo Carelbach, a German Rabbi and Composer. Had written many works, he also performs them.

He was a genius with phenomenal memory, after completing his religious studies he embarked in a career of composition, and performance. Born in Germany he moved to the states when he was a teenage, he then moved to Israel where he lead a community of fans and supporters. 

You're not familiar with his instrumental pieces, he wrote thousands of melodies...

I persoanlly have recordings of his instrumental music not for voice but for instruments.

The Israeli Philharmonic performs his music:



Charles Holt said:

He seems more of a singer-songwriter than composer. Again the bar seems set quite low by my opinion.

Saul Dzorelashvili said:

Rabbi Shlomo Carelbach, a German Rabbi and Composer. Had written many works, he also performs them.

He was a genius with phenomenal memory, after completing his religious studies he embarked in a career of composition, and performance. Born in Germany he moved to the states when he was a teenage, he then moved to Israel where he lead a community of fans and supporters. 

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