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Piece for piccolo flute, flute, oboe, clarinet, english horn, bass clarinet, bassoon, contrabassoon.

I think, piccolo again is too soft. 

I would love very much to hear your critique. Please write what you do not like about it, what you think is wrong and what seconds sound not realistic.

P.S. The score is old and it does not show all of the instruments on the first page.

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Do you want my honest opinion, lol? :)

Damn good piece of music, Alch. I like the sound of these winds. Piccolo sounded fine to me. Overall balance was good.

I love that graphical representation of the notes! Especially the trills. The C. Bassoon was lower than represented, right? It probably doesn't capture the octave transposition. But a really nice work, good job!

Rodney, that is right, i really want an honest opinion! :)

Michael, thanks for your comment. That is right: no transposition in this visualization.

First though, what did you use to do the score?

Do you mean note editor software or composing techniques? Note editor was Sibelius.

Rodney Carlyle Money said:

First though, what did you use to do the score?
Are you looking for this piece to be simply a demonstration of Berlin's woodwind libraries or are you looking for this to be a real piece for a real woodwind ensemble? Because then my thoughts could go long concerning which goal you are striving for. It's not fair for you to ask my ears to tell you which parts do not sound realistic, because I play on real woodwind instruments everyday. So in that retrospect, the only things that sound realistic are the short articulations and not the trills, legato passages, or sustained notes and maybe even the reverb or room. We real players, for example, during continuous melodic phrases would crescendo, then decrescendo ever slightly using a little vibrato at the end of a "long note" unless I'm on clarinet then no vibrato. So if this is a piece to demonstrate the Berlin sounds I like it, it makes me want to purchase the samples, but if this is for live real players I have a lot more suggestions. For example, it doesn't sound like a piece written for woodwinds but more like a piano player trying to substitute woodwind samples to his part. There's a lot more but let me know your thoughts first concerning the purpose of your work.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions, they are very helpful! My goal is to sequence the instruments so that they sound very realistic even to the instrument players! I will try to apply your suggestion about the cresc/decresc.

As for this "piano player" - I have already heard this from another forum member. What do you mean exactly by this and what would you change? I am not a piano player, so this is not so easy to understand for me.

If you have some time, could you please comment on the other piece, where I used different library and different humanization techniques? http://composersforum.ning.com/forum/topics/piece-for-piccolo-flute...

Rodney Carlyle Money said:

Are you looking for this piece to be simply a demonstration of Berlin's woodwind libraries or are you looking for this to be a real piece for a real woodwind ensemble? Because then my thoughts could go long concerning which goal you are striving for. It's not fair for you to ask my ears to tell you which parts do not sound realistic, because I play on real woodwind instruments everyday. So in that retrospect, the only things that sound realistic are the short articulations and not the trills, legato passages, or sustained notes and maybe even the reverb or room. We real players, for example, during continuous melodic phrases would crescendo, then decrescendo ever slightly using a little vibrato at the end of a "long note" unless I'm on clarinet then no vibrato. So if this is a piece to demonstrate the Berlin sounds I like it, it makes me want to purchase the samples, but if this is for live real players I have a lot more suggestions. For example, it doesn't sound like a piece written for woodwinds but more like a piano player trying to substitute woodwind samples to his part. There's a lot more but let me know your thoughts first concerning the purpose of your work.

Remember to give the flute player a few seconds to reset when he/she goes to the piccolo.

 The low bassoon notes are do able on the contra bassoon but anything below Bb 2 octaves below middle C (two leger lines below the bass clef staff) are not playable. BUT for those very low notes, with proper preparation and a very good performer, you can get them out of the French horn, the low note on the F French horn being 4 leger lines below the staff, A low F (takes a very good player to make it work).

Also I wondered about some of the low notes on the Oboe and Clarinet. Almost all of these problems can be resolved by re-orchestration.

Its a nice composition. Its entertaining and has a nice shape to it

Thanks for comment. Instrument ranges are important.

As for oboe and clarinet - what are the lowest notes that can be played without problem?

Flute and piccolo play at the same time actually. So there are two players. Is that what you mean?

As for bassoon - my lowest notes are middle C. What measures do you mean in PDF?


Fredrick zinos said:

Remember to give the flute player a few seconds to reset when he/she goes to the piccolo.

 The low bassoon notes are do able on the contra bassoon but anything below Bb 2 octaves below middle C (two leger lines below the bass clef staff) are not playable. BUT for those very low notes, with proper preparation and a very good performer, you can get them out of the French horn, the low note on the F French horn being 4 leger lines below the staff, A low F (takes a very good player to make it work).

Also I wondered about some of the low notes on the Oboe and Clarinet. Almost all of these problems can be resolved by re-orchestration.

Its a nice composition. Its entertaining and has a nice shape to it

Oboe. Middle C but if you get down around E or D there is a tendency for the instrument to sound alike a duck. Maybe you want that if you are composing peter and the wolf.

Bb Clarinet, safe to do down to f below middle C (written G). Theoretically you can get down to Eb below middle C but that depends on what the preceding passage contains(and what type reed the performer is using).

RE the PDF lots of questions which I will get to later today.is this an octet?

I'm nit picking.. this is really a very nice composition.

The reason it sounds like a piano player wrote this is the accompaniment. If you want this piece to truly be for woodwinds then every part needs to be interesting with their own melodic material even when they are there for only support. Come on man, you wrote for contrabassoon, a $20,000+ instrument, give him something awesome to play besides just boring quarter-notes and whole-notes. The bassoon parts simply sound like the left hand on the piano with the pedal added to sustain the bass pitches. Every part must be important and hold their own. It should be written as though any woodwind player could use your piece as a feature for their own solo recital. For example, a student bassoon player who was giving their senior student recital could insert your piece and the audience would still think it was a great piece for bassoon. Most of your accompaniments such as the first oboe sequence starting in measure 2 with the 8th notes are exactly the same figures as I would teach beginning piano students. That is classic "C position" for beginners. You can start with the 8th notes to emphasis the harmony but then make those lines more melodic and moving with lines and 16th figures pushing the piece forward and making the parts more interesting not just simple, homophonic texture. Even your "B" section sounds as though you played a low note on the piano, pushed the sustain pedal, and then layered notes on top of each other. Think of lines when writing for smaller ensembles. The moment it becomes melody with harmony, your instrumentalist will start thinking this piece wasn't really written for their instrument. Your ostinato figures such as starting at measure 18 sounds more like they were supposed to be written for strings, the articulations should be 2 notes staccato, 2 notes slurred btw, and motifs such as measure 56 sounds like the bassoon is making fun of brass players because that is more of a brass cliché rhythm. Measure 26 sounds exactly like you just hit a low note on the piano to be answered by a sweet high note. You have it marked "MP" in the piccolo. Well I hope you meant "mighty powerfully" because that's what it will take to play that high A. All the 16th passages should be slurred btw, and the piccolo passage like measure 74 would be easier and sound the same if you just wrote the first note and glissando to the last note.

Fredrick and Rodney, thanks a lot for examining the piece closely!

Maybe, I really go with oboe too low - I use E and D. As for clarinet - I am in safe range with lowest G (sounding). Does it still sound too low?

Yes, an octet.


Fredrick zinos said:

Oboe. Middle C but if you get down around E or D there is a tendency for the instrument to sound alike a duck. Maybe you want that if you are composing peter and the wolf.

Bb Clarinet, safe to do down to f below middle C (written G). Theoretically you can get down to Eb below middle C but that depends on what the preceding passage contains(and what type reed the performer is using).

RE the PDF lots of questions which I will get to later today.is this an octet?

I'm nit picking.. this is really a very nice composition.

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