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Hi dear composers! Good night!

I just wanna share with you this compositions, just using electric guitar as sound source.
The first and second are really simple, and unidimensional, just working with chords (yes, is

a major second tuning) from different density levels, or degrees and some modulation things appearing in some very specific points. The reverberation level is always the same... (all ocurr on the same space).
The third miniature have 6 layers (tracks) and I've worked with precise pans, volume controls,

lreverb levels (size of the room), number of voices on chorus effect, in a contrapontistic fashion.

I can post some prints from Reaper, showing the Trim lines, if you want.
I'm new in electroacoustic music, so I'm curious to receive some feedback from other composers!

Thank you for sharing your impressions!

Apologize my english! hehe

https://soundcloud.com/paul-wegmann/miniaturas-para-guitarra-eletri...


https://soundcloud.com/paul-wegmann/miniaturas-para-guitarra-eletri...


https://soundcloud.com/paul-wegmann/miniaturas-para-guitarra-eletri...

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Thank you Bob!!

I'm not blaming you for your taste. Taste comes from culture, from things you are accustomed.
I'm really dissapointed about your concepts of what music must to be, to be called "music".
But, again, if that concepts you create on your mind to name the things you know helps you, somehow,
it's good. For me, is a "cultural crash". The way we name things (a necessity of any language) don't make us better

or worse. I said in the very first post, "calle this as you want", I really don't care.
I just reccomend you, friendly, read more about it, in order to expand your knowledgement about music.
Abstract painting, still painting, or we must call as painting just landscapes and "real" things like old woman in the window or fruits?

You don't hear notes? You should see a doctor. I will transcribe chord by chord and post here the sheet.
I know exactly what I'm doing in harmony. I tuned my guitar in seconds, to produce what?
Notes.

Gotta agree with Ray here Paul, as one who has worked in TV for almost 30 years, your pieces are part of the everyday in media work and whilst it might take me longer than 5 mins these days, I and almost everyone else I knew who were composers, could have done similar in a few hours. Mind you Ray, I don't think Paul is espousing this as art and as such, you take it or leave it for what it is - a personal expression in a common medium.

For me is Ok.

Bob, I hope none of your comments were directed at me- to reaffirm my position, from my first post 

My response may be slightly more controversial, but I always value honesty as the best approach. Hopefully this is a fair critique- 

I am reluctant to call these pieces very 'musical' - is it music? Arguable. To me, music is more formed, structured-  I suppose there are elements of music within the pieces. Of course, it's far from traditional music. I'm all for trying different things, and seeing how far one can push the limits. 

To me however, this is more of 'sound design' - I just couldn't really sit down and get into these pieces. I know some will disagree, but, I personally do not consider works like this 'music' - For me, music needs a rhythm, even if an unconventional one, some sort of melodic material, and some sort of harmonic structure- these works do have harmony, but to me they are severely lacking the other aspects to really be considered very 'musical' - I do not wish for my critique to be misunderstood, so do not get me wrong- to make it clear:

Is this an art? Yes

Is it creative? Yes

Is there a use for works like these? Yes

Are the pieces good for what I personally consider them (sound design) - Yes, very much so 

 Musically, I couldn't identify a story being told, I couldn't grasp the element of emotion changing or swaying, I couldn't identify melodic material to catch onto and follow. 

Could this be notated? Not likely. Possibly. 

So to me, this type of work feels like sound design, an "abstract mood ambiance noise" suitable as underscore in a film, game, etc, to set a certain type of feel - not (to me personally) something I'd sit down and listen to. Obviously, as others have noted here, some people can sit down and enjoy this, and listen to it. 

It sounded to me like some noodling on chords with a guitar pedal, a DAW, and experimenting with the element of ambient space via reverb pedals or reverb VSTs. I, again personally, crave something a little more structured in music I will sit down and listen to for the enjoyment of listening. Something meticulously thought out, or something improvised through a group of talented musicians playing live and reading off one another.

Do not get me wrong-  I would enjoy these pieces if aided via some form of picture, whether through gaming or assisting a film / production in some manner. 

I hope none of my comments have come off as rude, or condescending- I simply am stating my personal opinion, and it is nothing more then that. I have tried to remain respectful during this debate and I apologize if I have not done so- I am not looking for a war here, just a friendly discussion on a controversial work like this when it is classified as 'music' by the artist. Hopefully it can remain so because until recently the thread was very interesting because of everyone's different view points. 

This is an odd thing to say right after bemoaning my/our "musical prejudices and attitudes".

The musical prejudices and attitudes "bemoaned" were things mentioned--again  like taking a piece of music more seriously after learning that the composer had for example studied music somewhere.

Or that a piece of music MUST meet certain criteria and have certain elements--usually based on older styles-- before it can even be conidered music, and good or bad music at that.

To me these are prejudices, either on their own or dressed as opinions--and in each case the music itself isnt judged fairly

I've no doubt you and Paul would find little to enjoy in my music,

Again, another example of prejudging Dave--you say you have NO doubt, yet in my case youd be dead wrong, and as for Paul--well why dont you let him speak for himself on this?

Is your taste so fragile that the blame must be placed on the listener?

I think new music isnt being fairly judged because most simply arent familiar with it and again are unwilling or unable or just plain scared to judge it without being bound by older music as a standard. This to me accounts for the oft heard statement that this kind of music is 100 years or so ahead of its time, and as with all as we become more and more exposed to it, it becomes easier to take, and eventually-heaven forbid- may even be liked!

The "Lexicon of Musical Invective" http://books.wwnorton.com/books/Lexicon-of-Musical-Invective/ bears this point out--that much of the music and composers who are now revered werent  when they were new. It took years for them to be assimilated, and then adored.

And as for the "fragile" part Dave Im lost as to what you mean or whatever.

Thanks Bob https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito

Dave Dexter said:

"And to be able to consider for themselves if something is music or something else; and feel inclined to like a piece or not, solely on the music itself, all based on their purely subjective and personal opinion. Not liking or even hating a piece of music doesnt make it bad music--its simply just one's opinion."

This is an odd thing to say right after bemoaning my/our "musical prejudices and attitudes". It's my opinion. It's not prejudice. I've no doubt you and Paul would find little to enjoy in my music, and I would be able to handle that as expressions of your taste and opinion, not assume - like Paul - that it's down to untutored arrogance, or - like you - that it's thanks to a prejudicial attitude. Is your taste so fragile that the blame must be placed on the listener?

Hi David-- No not at all--Ive read your posts in this thread and they are especially well written and such a welcome relief from many of the other comments made.

I especially enjoyed the point I believe you made basically about us not yet being familiar enough with the new music now but we would be over time, as that's the way history seems to go..

I am not looking for a war here, just a friendly discussion on a controversial work like this when it is classified as 'music' by the artist. Hopefully it can remain so because until recently the thread was very interesting because of everyone's different view points.

Again very well said, but it seems with discussions on new music, someone always wants to turn the thread into a war, and this is really unfortunate.

Thanks so much for your posts, David.

https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito

David Lilly said:

Bob, I hope none of your comments were directed at me- to reaffirm my position, from my first post 

My response may be slightly more controversial, but I always value honesty as the best approach. Hopefully this is a fair critique- 

I am reluctant to call these pieces very 'musical' - is it music? Arguable. To me, music is more formed, structured-  I suppose there are elements of music within the pieces. Of course, it's far from traditional music. I'm all for trying different things, and seeing how far one can push the limits. 

To me however, this is more of 'sound design' - I just couldn't really sit down and get into these pieces. I know some will disagree, but, I personally do not consider works like this 'music' - For me, music needs a rhythm, even if an unconventional one, some sort of melodic material, and some sort of harmonic structure- these works do have harmony, but to me they are severely lacking the other aspects to really be considered very 'musical' - I do not wish for my critique to be misunderstood, so do not get me wrong- to make it clear:

Is this an art? Yes

Is it creative? Yes

Is there a use for works like these? Yes

Are the pieces good for what I personally consider them (sound design) - Yes, very much so 

 Musically, I couldn't identify a story being told, I couldn't grasp the element of emotion changing or swaying, I couldn't identify melodic material to catch onto and follow. 

Could this be notated? Not likely. Possibly. 

So to me, this type of work feels like sound design, an "abstract mood ambiance noise" suitable as underscore in a film, game, etc, to set a certain type of feel - not (to me personally) something I'd sit down and listen to. Obviously, as others have noted here, some people can sit down and enjoy this, and listen to it. 

It sounded to me like some noodling on chords with a guitar pedal, a DAW, and experimenting with the element of ambient space via reverb pedals or reverb VSTs. I, again personally, crave something a little more structured in music I will sit down and listen to for the enjoyment of listening. Something meticulously thought out, or something improvised through a group of talented musicians playing live and reading off one another.

Do not get me wrong-  I would enjoy these pieces if aided via some form of picture, whether through gaming or assisting a film / production in some manner. 

I hope none of my comments have come off as rude, or condescending- I simply am stating my personal opinion, and it is nothing more then that. I have tried to remain respectful during this debate and I apologize if I have not done so- I am not looking for a war here, just a friendly discussion on a controversial work like this when it is classified as 'music' by the artist. Hopefully it can remain so because until recently the thread was very interesting because of everyone's different view points. 

Youre very welcome Paul--its a shame as to what this--and other similar threads--is now turning into, and again I enjoyed your music here and on Soundcloud very much.

Thanks Bob https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito

Paul Wegmann said:

Thank you Bob!!

The musical prejudices and attitudes "bemoaned" were things mentioned--again  like taking a piece of music more seriously after learning that the composer had for example studied music somewhere.

Hi Bob,

Here we go again eh! ah well.....I blame the narcissistic Romantics for this...:-)

I'm responding to the above because it's pretty much what I said. Why shouldn't I respect a trained composer more than an untrained one? It's my choice and a choice that has some sound reasoning behind it. 

 My mind is not closed to music by gifted composers who have no training, of which I met many in my career and despite my education, still lost jobs to some of them! Many composers in media are multi millionaires and have written some fantastic music.  My respect is there, but sadly a lot of the time the music I hear that's supposed to be a serious work, is what you'd expect from someone who has not yet achieved the experience and more importantly, the know how to put their thoughts into an eloquent and cultured expression. I am of course just talking about serious art music here.

A formal training will give a good composer a much better handle on working with the materials and as a result, the expression, no matter what style it's in, will be that much more succinct and worthwhile listening to. That's the sort of music I want to hear, life is too short to keep listening to the same old same old that a billion 14 year olds can do in their bedroom. Yes, I accept that even those kids are composers in some sense, but if you think you are going to be enriched in some way when you listen to their music.........

I said in my last post here that Pauls' minatures are a personal expression, that makes them valid as such to me. The fact that Paul has training gives me confidence in his ability to say what he wants to say in the best way possible for him. His artifice has a chance of becoming art to willing listeners.  If I don't like them, it's because my ears are wide open, receptive and respectful - that's my privilege, not my prejudice.

Hi Mike--Respecting a composer for the fact of having studied for many years and had training is fine--but making this a pre or post judging point to like or dislike music, or to like or dislike a piece more or less after finding this out after listening isnt fair, nor an attitude I feel anyone should espouse. And demeaning those who havent is well simply unfortunate.

A formal training will give a good composer a much better handle on working with the materials and as a result, the expression, no matter what style it's in, will be that much more succinct and worthwhile listening to. That's the sort of music I want to hear, life is too short to keep listening to the same old same old that a 14 year old can do in his bedroom.

I fear you place TOO much emphasis on training, Mike, feeling the musical end result will ALWAYS be better..it simply isnt so, in my experience.

And to simply dismiss and demean others music as that "same old same old that a 14 year old can do in his bedroom" and "whilst it might take me longer than 5 mins these days, I and almost everyone else I knew who were composers, could have done similar in a few hours"is very disappointing to me..

Just my opinion.

Thanks Bob https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito

PS

I said in my last post here that Pauls' minatures are a personal expression, that makes them valid as such to me

You also said "I don't think Paul is espousing this as art "...I felt he was, and to me it is.

Again just an opinion.

Mike Hewer said:

The musical prejudices and attitudes "bemoaned" were things mentioned--again  like taking a piece of music more seriously after learning that the composer had for example studied music somewhere.

Hi Bob,

Here we go again eh! ah well.....I blame the narcissistic Romantics for this...:-)

I'm responding to the above because it's pretty much what I said. Why shouldn't I respect a trained composer more than an untrained one? It's my choice and a choice that has some sound reasoning behind it. 

I listened to Pauls' piece with an open mind and came to the conclusion that it was allright and nothing more. My mind is not closed to music by gifted composers who have no training, of which I met many in my career and despite my education, still lost jobs to some of them! Many composers in media are multi millionaires and have written some fantastic music.  My respect is there, but sadly a lot of the time the music I hear that's supposed to be a serious work, is what you'd expect from someone who has not yet achieved the experience and the know how to put their thoughts into an eloquent and cultured expression. I am of course just talking about serious art music here.

A formal training will give a good composer a much better handle on working with the materials and as a result, the expression, no matter what style it's in, will be that much more succinct and worthwhile listening to. That's the sort of music I want to hear, life is too short to keep listening to the same old same old that a 14 year old can do in his bedroom.

I said in my last post here that Pauls' minatures are a personal expression, that makes them valid as such to me. The fact that Paul has training gives me confidence in his ability to say what he wants to say in the best way possible for him. If I don't like them, it's because my ears are wide open and receptive - that's my privilege, not my prejudice.

Just facts Bob, I'm sorry if my and countless others professionalism disappoints you. like I said, I have respect and do acknowledge all creativity...doesn't mean to say it's any good though or we'd be swimming in genius. How much kids music do you listen to? For that matter how much traditional music do you listen to, I bet you have some dislikes eh?

I'll agree with you on the pre and post decision. But my suspicions are there because of the possibility of charlatinism when a work of uncompromising tenet is presented as a work of art (this is not about you Paul - nor you Bob for that matter) you know the argument by now. My decision on Pauls' music didn't change when I learnt about his training, just my attitude to it.

Seriously though Bob do you think the training sieves away any feeling to leave a sterile expression? That somehow the training blinds you to the full gamut of emotion inherent in the idea? The training gives you the foundation to express yourself. A bit like when playing a Chopin Etude say. A concert pianist (trained) will wonder how to impart emotion and soul into the notes, a lesser trained pianist in performance will be crapping himself about bars 10 -21 and probably the rest too - not much room for expression and feeling there, unless it of the terrified sort.

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