Midi, Vst and the whole S***

[Ario]

Just recently, I got the tip, to use DAW's, which would edit the midi output of my finale scores...

Problem: Either the stuff is merely editable (in Sonar and Samplitude), or there is no playback... I'm a little troubled about this and wish to achieve better sound quality, without having to put up with "entering" midi notes...

The midi files are created involving a VST (Edirol orchestral) - might that be the problem?

I've checked the internet for standard "tutorials" etc. ... no luck!

Could anyone give me a good link to some tips on the internet, or give me a short lecture, on how to edit the midi files created by finale? (in this case version 2009).

Thanks for reading, and in advance for any help....


Ario

[Ario]

Thanks for the answer.

I did as you said, and was shocked by the extreme poor quality of tone... it was totally raw and without any life... Is that the basis you guys use to make real nice audio files with?
Why can't I simply take a finale-produced WAV file and split it into e.g. 4 tracks? I didn't manage to... but I just can't believe that editing one's computer-produced music is such great trouble!

Just to sum up my bunch of crazy questions... is there any easier way, than ediitng stone-age-like Midi files?
And to answer the possible question in advance... I would like to edit each track seperately.

Ario

[Andrew Gleibman]

Ario, your DAW is probably connected to so called General MIDI sounds of the computer sound card (Soundblaster), which is likely to be the default setting of your DAW. You need to manually reassign instruments (channels) of your MIDI score to instruments of your library. Probably this can be done as you did it in Finale. You should get exactly the same sound as in Finale. Start modifying the MIDI score only after this. This is not stone-age; this is simply LITERATE performing what is written in the score so that you can modify all tiny details as you wish.

[Ario]

Thank you, Ray and Andrew... Very nice of you, helping me out on this. I'm gonna spend some time on this now!

Wish you a happy new year

Ario.

[Jesse Boley]

well what exactly are you trying to accomplish? If you are trying to create a realistic sound, that's not going to be possible with a wav file from finale... not only is it not feasible to split it into separate tracks (though you could output each track separately from finale) what are you going to do with those tracks? they are already unrealistic, and there is little you can do to them to improve them. There isn't a magic audio plugin that makes a low quality soundcard midi violin sound real.

With the data as midi, you have complete control over all of the parameters. You can change the articulation for each note, change the velocities and controller data that can have a huge impact on the sound if your VSTi is any good. you can also adjust the timing to make it less perfect and more human.

That might be part of your problem though, edirol really isn't very good. I used a bit and was never able to get decent results, although it does sound better than the default finale sounds.

Ario said:

Thanks for the answer.

I did as you said, and was shocked by the extreme poor quality of tone... it was totally raw and without any life... Is that the basis you guys use to make real nice audio files with?
Why can't I simply take a finale-produced WAV file and split it into e.g. 4 tracks? I didn't manage to... but I just can't believe that editing one's computer-produced music is such great trouble!

Just to sum up my bunch of crazy questions... is there any easier way, than ediitng stone-age-like Midi files?
And to answer the possible question in advance... I would like to edit each track seperately.

Ario

[Ario]

I see, you guys are critical about using Edirol's Orchestral VSTi, which leads me to a question... which product would you use?
Miroslav Philharmonic? Or...East West quantum (etc.) ? Or the vienna symphonic library? I've noticed some people using one called "wallander", which has extra VSTs for single instruments...

Again a summary: Which VST is most recommendable?

I'd prefer one, where a MIDI file sounds a little bit more acceptable, for less editing in Midi "style". As a musician, I definately prefer writng a few more "accelerandos" than turning knobs in samplitude!

I'd like realistic sounds - Dreaming of making a CD with lots of music of my own, which I could make a little money of (and skipping the story of finding the right musicians... at least for now).

Greetz, Ario.

P.s.: Thanks again for all the input, appreciate it alot!

[Donald McLaughlin]

Ario said:

I see, you guys are critical about using Edirol's Orchestral VSTi, which leads me to a question... which product would you use?
Miroslav Philharmonic? Or...East West quantum (etc.) ? Or the vienna symphonic library? I've noticed some people using one called "wallander", which has extra VSTs for single instruments...

Again a summary: Which VST is most recommendable?

I'd prefer one, where a MIDI file sounds a little bit more acceptable, for less editing in Midi "style". As a musician, I definately prefer writng a few more "accelerandos" than turning knobs in samplitude!

I'd like realistic sounds - Dreaming of making a CD with lots of music of my own, which I could make a little money of (and skipping the story of finding the right musicians... at least for now).

Greetz, Ario.

P.s.: Thanks again for all the input, appreciate it alot!

Ario,

So much depends on what it is you want to accomplish. In a very real sense, there is no "best", only what's "best" for the desired outcome.

Given what you seem to be trying to do, I don't think there really is any way around having to edit midi data to achieve the result you want. Any track composed on a composer program such as Finale will sound cruddy on playback to a GM file for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is the GM sounds in most computer's sound cares are cheesy to start with. Then there's the issues of how each note is played and what instructions the midi file is sending to the GM instrument on how to play the notes, etc etc. If I'm working with a MIDI file, the first thing I do upon import to my DAW (Pro Tools 8.0.3) is assign each track to a specified midi channel and then assign a specific insturment (voice) for that track to play, whether I send it to one of my VI's or externally to my Yamaha Motif. Any of those voices sound better than the computer's internal GM voices.

But then the real work begins....if you want the playback of the composition to sound good you have to "interpret" the notes you wrote in Finale so that the MIDI track will play them exactly as you wish. You can do this by either fiddling with the various midi instructions for each track -- adjusting velocity's , envelopes, etc, OR, you could settle on the exact voice you want to use, and then simply re-record that part in your DAW. I do that a lot, and when I do, I record both audio AND MIDI, so I can capture my performance in MIDI for any changes/edits I may want to make later.

What you can't do is go straight from drawing notes on a staff in Finale (or any other score program) to MIDI file and expect playback to sound the way you want it to.

Also, remember that any midi track, once voiced and edited, can be converted to audio in virtually any DAW, and then you can mix, edit completely in audio to your heart's content. Most of the time, I even convert my VI tracks to audio for any final mixing. Just easier to work with, I think.

Hope this helps a little.

[Bob Morabito]

Hi Ario--

I'm not sure I understand either what your trying to do,,but heres my understanding of it:

You create a score in Finale, and then want to edit it in a DAW-

why?
What are you trying to edit?

Are the notes and dynamics correct, In FInale?
In the version of FInale you're using..does it support playback using virtual instruments?

If yes to both of the above, then again, what are you trying to edit?

If you start changing things in the midi file in your DAW, they WONT be reflected in the score, unless you bounce it back to FInale, and change them in your score.
---

Now if you STILL want to bring a midi file from Finale into your sequencer, you have to make sure you're including the score's dynamics, either as on velocities, or volume control.

If all the on velocities/volume are the same, this will DEFINITELY cause lackluster performance_

(Im not familiar with Edirol Orchestral, but the midi file, is created by FInale.)

So basically..if the notes and dynamics sound ok in Finale, and your version of Finale supports VST playback, you should be able to do everything in Finale.

If you cant get the playback that you want in Finale, and want to go to a DAW, make sure the dynamics are included, in the midi file, and its exported as a type 1 SMF, (multi track) and set up playback accordingly.

And again, if you edit the midi file in your DAW, and these changes needs to be reelected in the score, go back to Finale and fix it.

Hope this helps!

Bob Morabito

[Ario]

Thank you all, alot... I'll spend some time on it, 'til I get the hang of it. Didn't expect so much input!!! :D

How long would you work on (i.e.) a six minute long string quartet? (6 minutes; 4 tracks) - considering, you guys probably have alot of routine in mastering your music...
I simply wonder, how much work is behind a sophisticated piece of music, that has been practically made by just "one instrument" - a computer (!)


Thanks again for being so helpful to all - I wish a good time writing ; )

Ario

[Ario]

Anybody heard of melodyne's DNA (Direct Note Access)?

In a TV-Programme, I saw a piano being recorded, then the sound technician would simply have the chords split into each single not at a press of a button (or anything near to that...). You can practically edit an audiotrack, as if it was all midi...

I was wondering, if this would be a motivation to start editing one's .wav files rather than midi!?!?!?
Or is it not of any advantage in your (professional's) opinion?

I thought it suits the topic here... I'd be too curious to know what you think


Ario.

[Andrew Gleibman]

Ario, I do not know DNA, but trying to edit WAV rather than MIDI is like trying to change a porridge, which is already prepared, instead of changing the recipe before boiling.

Ario said:

Anybody heard of melodyne's DNA (Direct Note Access)?

In a TV-Programme, I saw a piano being recorded, then the sound technician would simply have the chords split into each single not at a press of a button (or anything near to that...). You can practically edit an audiotrack, as if it was all midi...

I was wondering, if this would be a motivation to start editing one's .wav files rather than midi!?!?!?
Or is it not of any advantage in your (professional's) opinion?

I thought it suits the topic here... I'd be too curious to know what you think


Ario.

[Chris Alpiar]

if you want a real live sound you will have to spend a LOT of money, LASS, VSL, Symphobia, etc, and machines to support them, and you will need to spend probably a few years learning how to work with samples. I have been working non stop with samples since 2003 and I am still learning more and getting closer to a "real" sound. This is a VERY LONG HAUL, so be prepared for it ;-)

Ario said:

I see, you guys are critical about using Edirol's Orchestral VSTi, which leads me to a question... which product would you use?
Miroslav Philharmonic? Or...East West quantum (etc.) ? Or the vienna symphonic library? I've noticed some people using one called "wallander", which has extra VSTs for single instruments...

Again a summary: Which VST is most recommendable?

I'd prefer one, where a MIDI file sounds a little bit more acceptable, for less editing in Midi "style". As a musician, I definately prefer writng a few more "accelerandos" than turning knobs in samplitude!

I'd like realistic sounds - Dreaming of making a CD with lots of music of my own, which I could make a little money of (and skipping the story of finding the right musicians... at least for now).

Greetz, Ario.

P.s.: Thanks again for all the input, appreciate it alot!

[Chris Alpiar]

This is very cool but its still very limited. It can split apart chords of a simple instrument, but there is no way it can pull apart an orchestra. MIDI and really understanding the depths of your libraries, the CC controllers and how to use them, and probably sequencing and not using finale to make a good performance. Like I said, long haul ;-)

Ario said:

Anybody heard of melodyne's DNA (Direct Note Access)?

In a TV-Programme, I saw a piano being recorded, then the sound technician would simply have the chords split into each single not at a press of a button (or anything near to that...). You can practically edit an audiotrack, as if it was all midi...

I was wondering, if this would be a motivation to start editing one's .wav files rather than midi!?!?!?
Or is it not of any advantage in your (professional's) opinion?

I thought it suits the topic here... I'd be too curious to know what you think


Ario.