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The question has come up many times here as to what is music.

Isn't that questioned answered by what you compose?

Isn't what you write a reflection of what you believe music is

and/or should be. Or are you merely imitating the efforts and

precedents established by others. This is not to suggest that

imitation and following an established form is a bad thing.

Compared to the number of composers, revolutionary innovators

are few and far between from an historical perspective.

Regardless, there are certain elements of sound and sounds that

seem to separate music from 'noise', and acceptance can be

both individual and regional.

Is there any one common characteristic, across the globe, that

qualifies and separates music from noise?

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Fred, you forgot 'healthy eating habits'.

You have made it very clear that you have no regard for things 'metaphysical'.

You have also made it clear that you like to scoff at those who do.

From what I've read here, these things require 'proof '.

Maybe you are just looking under the wrong rock, because the proof is

there. You just don't know how to recognize it.       RS


 
Fredrick zinos said:

Dave I am personally convinced that the feeling that a person has that they "posses a resonance in tune with the universe" has more to do with getting a good nights sleep and having healthy blood sugar levels than it does with some woo woo cosmic force.

Kristofer,

    Send back that picture of me when you're done with it.

Kristofer Emerig said:



Dave Dexter said:

Do you possess a resonance in tune with the universe?

roger stancill said:

I write music because the chicks dig it, brother.

Ah, the Marvin Hamlish designation. I get that.

But that is short sighted if you are marriage and family oriented.

A resonance in tune with the universe..... 'a knowing'

That is the clarity. No tangent, no obfuscation, no complexity.

Dave, either you can't read or you can't comprehend what you've read.

Thanks, I feel blessed.  Do you?
 
Dave Dexter said:

So, you don't. You can't explain what it is and you can't tell me you have it.

roger stancill said:

Dave, just asking if someone 'possesses' such a thing shows a

lack of understanding. Have you ever possessed a 'moment of Zen' so to speak?

The appetite of scoffers and denegrators is insatiable.

I have never heard of anyone that existed in a constant state of Zen, yet those

'moments' happen. Are you familiar with the idea of syncronicity? Have you ever

experienced intuition?

If you go the grocery store, to the produce section, does there have to be a

label to signify the distinction between the 'small potato's' and the large potato's?

Of course not, you know 'small potato's' when you see them.

Large potato's are not better than small potato's, they have just grown more.
 
Dave Dexter said:

Do you possess a resonance in tune with the universe?

roger stancill said:

I write music because the chicks dig it, brother.

Ah, the Marvin Hamlish designation. I get that.

But that is short sighted if you are marriage and family oriented.

A resonance in tune with the universe..... 'a knowing'

That is the clarity. No tangent, no obfuscation, no complexity.

Dave, thanks once again for the compliment, but no 'cleverness' was intended.

Please clarify and define for us what Jimi Hendricks meant by 'are you experienced' ?

Are you saying that you can't comprehend something beyond words?

Have you ever experienced anything that was beyond the capacity of words

to describe? Isn't there a higher appreciation of music that transcends the words

to describe it? How can anyone convey that experience to another, unless that

'other' has and shares the same/similar experience?  It happens .     RS

OK Fred, point accepted... healthy blood sugar levels can be a measure of good eating habits.

No need to apologize, I can handle it, but thanks.

The question seems to be 'what is acceptible proof' ? How do you provide objective proof of

something that is not an 'object'? The rule you suggest may well apply to the physical realm,

but not so easily to that which is referred to as the 'metaphysical' realm.

Attemptimg to describe something intangible and proving it is much more difficult.

I totally agree with you that there is a lot of 'woo woo' associated with the subject

and that there are plenty of people that have made a fortune off of 'woo woo'.

None-the-less there is a body of evidence that suggests that it is not all just

psycho-hooey.  The road to that experience is not unbelief or denial of the

possibility that it exists. The proof is the experience.


 
Fredrick zinos said:

Roger

Same discussion we've had on this board previously. It is up to the individual making the affirmative statement to provide objective proof of the veracity of his/her statement.

I certainly do not mean to scoff at you and apologize if that's the way I come off. I have high regard for your intellect and your imagination and always enjoy our discussions.

Healthy eating habits are more or less covered by the term healthy blood sugar levels.


roger stancill said:

Fred, you forgot 'healthy eating habits'.

You have made it very clear that you have no regard for things 'metaphysical'.

You have also made it clear that you like to scoff at those who do.

From what I've read here, these things require 'proof '.

Maybe you are just looking under the wrong rock, because the proof is

there. You just don't know how to recognize it.       RS


 
Fredrick zinos said:

Dave I am personally convinced that the feeling that a person has that they "posses a resonance in tune with the universe" has more to do with getting a good nights sleep and having healthy blood sugar levels than it does with some woo woo cosmic force.

Dave, do you really expect me to believe that you are sorry, or is that just another word choice error?
I'm going to stick with my statement. Either you get it or you don't. There is no empirical proof that I

can offer. At this point I am content to be just another 'crazy' person in your view. It is pointless to

debate and argue with those who have no grasp of these things.

You ask some good and semi valid questions, but you obviously are lacking in the clue department.

It is not a question of intellect and proof; It's more a question of heart and soul.

I really don't care if you share my view, but if you do, then we can share that view.

If you don't, then enjoy your own view. Why must you stomp on mine?

Do you want a refund of your subscription check? Or are you just another pot shot punk

gunnin' for a trophy?  It's been fun , but let's move on.    


 Dave Dexter said:

Perhaps I should have said "slyly", "cunningly" or "underhandedly." "Cleverly" was an error, I'm sorry about that.

Why the tits should I define what Hendrix said? We're discussing your claims here. You've been specific up to the point of saying "True understanding is not a fact or an opinion.... It is a resonance in tune with the universe." When pressed, you managed "A resonance in tune with the universe..... 'a knowing' That is the clarity. No tangent, no obfuscation, no complexity." Beyond that you've been somewhat coy. So:

What do you know? How do you resonate with the universe? How do you verify said resonance as with the universe as opposed to hallucination or imagination? What knowledge do you obtain, and by what processes, and do you question it? Can you give a single, simple example of a point where your knowing, your resonance with the universe, provided some insight on a subject for you? How, indeed, can you resonate with the universe as a whole?

This isn't scoffing. It's all too easy to dismiss criticism as such, because it removes any obligation to back up your claims. This is the basis of empiricism - the review of hypotheses. If you make a claim and then through the conditions of the claim place yourself beyond verification of the claim, you're nothing new.



roger stancill said:

Dave, thanks once again for the compliment, but no 'cleverness' was intended.

Please clarify and define for us what Jimi Hendricks meant by 'are you experienced' ?

Are you saying that you can't comprehend something beyond words?

Have you ever experienced anything that was beyond the capacity of words

to describe? Isn't there a higher appreciation of music that transcends the words

to describe it? How can anyone convey that experience to another, unless that

'other' has and shares the same/similar experience?  It happens .     RS

Fred, That seems to be a solid, sane and reasonable perspective.

Yet, everything in 'reality' is not solid. If we had stayed grounded by

that limitation, would we have discovered radio waves for example.

I'm not trying to discuss 'dream interpretation' or reading tea leaves.

You're a learned guy.... do you think there is a breakaway point

between -'seeing is believing' and 'believe and you will see' within

the human psyche?

Though tangental, to the 'flat earth/flat horizon' advocates, it may

actually circle back to the original discussion by partially defining

good music from bad music as it pertains to the health and well

being of the human psyche and the subliminal cultural engineering

the 'happens' as a result of that music.                RS

So now you are spokesman for the establishment. ?

What qualifies something as absurd? The idea that Dave has no proof,

therefore it is out of his safe zone and limited experience-

It was extremely absurd that Trump could enter the race and actually win.

Well I'll be Jethro, lookie here... Grannie's done passed out in disbelief.

 Based on my own 'objective' read, I had been saying 'landslide for Trump'

since last March. Good 'guess' huh.     Me(h)                           



Dave Dexter said:

Well, I'll tell you.

You say a lot of absurd things. Most of them I don't mention. But when you say something absurd, something you can't or won't back up, twinned with a pre-emptive attack on anyone who disagrees - that's gravy to me. If the strength of your convictions is so slight that you have to use pejoratives to group, label and dismiss critics . . . you're going to get critics. Critics who ironically think you care very much about what they think, given your vehemence :)

roger stancill said:

Why must you stomp on mine?

Mr. Z, you know very well that clinical studies are designed to fail. :>/

They are merely grants sought by institutions to produce nothing

but continual grants. On the other hand there are the Holistic branch

 of studies and the common practices of  the Eastern mystics. (a drug free zone)

Granted, they deal with frequencies more than what most would call music,

but we are still dealing with the same 'realm'.

If the admin. here installed a 'hide/ show more' function to these threads, they would seem

much less overpowering and time consuming. Apparently there is no way known to the internet

to eliminate the

'pot shots' and those only pretending to be interested in the main subject, as they vie for

attention and have a penchant for disruption. and discord.

There is a HUGE difference between delusional beliefs and belief in something

towards the manifestation of that belief in the 'real' world for oneself.


 
Fredrick zinos said:

My guess is "if you believe it enough, for you it will be real". Skillful marketers operate  on the idea that people who want something badly enough could be convinced that they need it.

  I do agree with the general idea that "good" music is more likely to produce a positive effect on the mind and body than "bad" music. In other words the outcome describes commodity which is dicey. But the question posed at the beginning of this gigantic thread "how can WE define music?" seems to outline human beings as the "we"

I don't know if there are conclusive clinical studies that would support the idea that "good" music lowers blood pressure, improves digestion, reduces depression, is in some way generally therapeutic for our species, but I hope there are.

Roger stancill said:

Fred, That seems to be a solid, sane and reasonable perspective.

Yet, everything in 'reality' is not solid. If we had stayed grounded by

that limitation, would we have discovered radio waves for example.

I'm not trying to discuss 'dream interpretation' or reading tea leaves.

You're a learned guy.... do you think there is a breakaway point

between -'seeing is believing' and 'believe and you will see' within

the human psyche?

Though tangental, to the 'flat earth/flat horizon' advocates, it may

actually circle back to the original discussion by partially defining

good music from bad music as it pertains to the health and well

being of the human psyche and the subliminal cultural engineering

the 'happens' as a result of that music.                RS

Ok Fred, I see that side of it, but that's a 'commercial deal'. By stating

grants I was implying the Government taxpayers dollars and the east coast

phenonenom we call  NIH. The Nat. Inst. of Health.

I totally agree that privatized 'clinical studies' can and should produce data that

succeeds in it's commission, but do a liitle bit of research and you will find a few

interesting deaths among people that have dared to challenge what is referred to

as Big Pharma and the clinical data they present to the trusting American public.

There's no money in cures.


 
Fredrick zinos said:

Mr. Z, you know very well that clinical studies are designed to fail. :>/

My experience has been exactly the opposite. Clinical study designs are very carefully crafted to separate the wheat from the chaff, i.e., to elucidate honest, repeatable, error-free data. The designer of the study (or the party that commissions a study design) has a vested interest in seeing the study succeed. Successful studies is how you attract investors.

Studies that fail are much less likely to attract additional funding.

 

"Skillful marketers operate on the idea that people who want something badly enough could be convinced that they need it."  ...  This might not be quite right.  It does appear to pertain to music.  But let's look at the statement briefly.  Perhaps it's more correct to say,

"Skillful marketers operate on the idea that people who don't want item X could be convinced that they need it."

The people in question might not have even imagined or thought of item X in the first place.  Or perhaps it's even more correct to say,

"Expert deceivers operate on the idea that people who don't need X could be convinced that they need it."

Bernays comes to mind.  (He was a sort of a founding father of the art of propaganda that could be used by advertisers and public opinion shapers, in order to foster false ideas for the sake of narrow interests.  The "art" lay in appealing to emotions, rather than reason.) Similar deception can occur in many domains, even in the marketing of candidates running for office, with potentially negative effects.  As far as "music" goes (a topic somewhat relevant to the discussion thread), something similar can happen.  People can be led to purchase, buy, own and even "like music," based upon mass marketing and a bandwagon effect.  Music education, careful contemplation of artworks, and thoughtfulness are jettisoned in favor of a set of misleading sounds and images, or an irrational spectacle.  These well-funded rackets easily distort people's perceptions about what constitutes good music, or even the very nature of "music itself."   I hope you don't mind my bringing up music and the definition of music, in this context.  If it seems innappropriate, I apologize.

Exactly Fredrick, The bottom line is not humanity,

it is profit profit profit-

no matter what the cost to humanity(and taxpayers)

and... the insurance industry is a cesspool of corruption and

the feeding trough of it all. I don't think that I am being haughty

or unreasonably judgemental when I say, The public is just plain stupid!

Even the regulatory process and the patent procedures are set up to

help secure the dominance of the 'powers that be'. How better to screen

new potential cures than moniter the patents applied for and 'act' to

maintain ones monopoly.

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