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The question has come up many times here as to what is music.

Isn't that questioned answered by what you compose?

Isn't what you write a reflection of what you believe music is

and/or should be. Or are you merely imitating the efforts and

precedents established by others. This is not to suggest that

imitation and following an established form is a bad thing.

Compared to the number of composers, revolutionary innovators

are few and far between from an historical perspective.

Regardless, there are certain elements of sound and sounds that

seem to separate music from 'noise', and acceptance can be

both individual and regional.

Is there any one common characteristic, across the globe, that

qualifies and separates music from noise?

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P.S. On the question, 'can we separate music from noise'?

I never heard anyone ever make a convincing case that the two were distinct from one another, or that there was not at least considerable overlapping. 

Mozart knew this.   And he implied that he did, when he allegedly said to Beethoven, after hearing him play the piano, "You will make a big noise in the world".

Hi Serenity,

I love the quantum analogies.

It's as if Fernyhough et al bring a sonic Planck length resolution of music into the macro world of audio and manage to avoid a collapse of the (in this case very appropriate) wave function as it hits our macro ears. So now we can see and listen to a hidden, fundamental world, a world seething with events, possible events and future events all of which are now emancipated from the exclusion principle.

Kristofer, I don't know Grayson or follow his commentary but I can give

you this; you ask,   What evidence do you have that the "public is waking up"?

I do listen to SGT Report, available on You Tube. I have for about 2 years.

Reasonable evidence that more and more people are waking up can be seen

in the number of subscribers that are 'tuning in'. This is true of quite a few of

the channels I subscribe to. The viewership is rising daily.

People that watch the mainstream media outlets are realizing that it too

is a part of 'the machine' of propaganda and a tool used to further the agenda

of  central banks and corporations.

Remember 'Where's Waldo'?   take a look at a street map of Wash. DC and

see if you can spot the owl sitting above a triangle(pyramid) in the street layout.

There's an owl etched into the design of the dollar bill.

The same owl is the symbol associated with  Bohemien Groove.

ps- and all that is just the tip of the iceberg as they say      RS (Researching Shadows)

Then why bother to tune a piano? ;>/

Overlapping is an interesting view. At some point though, there must be

a line that can be drawn. At some point red becomes orange becomes yellow etc.

Should music be determined by and ruled/gauged by our natural perceptions?
 Or it that too limiting? -or is it 'qualified' by how the sounds affect us emotionally

and physically? i.e. fingernails raking a slate chalkboard               R (retuning to the thread)


Serenity Laine said:

P.S. On the question, 'can we separate music from noise'?

I never heard anyone ever make a convincing case that the two were distinct from one another, or that there was not at least considerable overlapping. 

Mozart knew this.   And he implied that he did, when he allegedly said to Beethoven, after hearing him play the piano, "You will make a big noise in the world".

Conspiracy theories. 

Music. 

If Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart were alive we could ask them to define music. 

Frank Zappa would probably reply: how could I answer that? You expect a sane answer from a dude who named his kid Moon Unit? 

Captain Beefheart would just say that we can not ever know the answer and that we may as well define a trout mask replica. 

hey there Bob,  hopefully it was just a short aside... like a coffee break :>}

 and then back to the 'task' at hand

Bob Porter said:

.....and we're back to conspiracy theories (sigh).

Political systems rise and fall. Financial systems rise and fall. As do societies, nations, ideologies, and everything man believes in. So does music. But music plods inexorably on. It absorbs ideas and events around it. It grinds them up and makes something new and better. How many hair-brained musical ideas popped up various times in the past that were popular with some people, left their mark on music, but then died out without a trace otherwise? Probably quite a few. 

AI composed music seems interesting to me, but in and of itself, is of little practical use. It's no surprise that a computer can create music that sounds like Bach. But to have it write music in my style because I don't have time to do it myself seems fraudulent. 

Regarding Andrew's comments - Mr. Z actually did  provide a definition of music -

“So, if music is the best, what is music? Anything can be music, but it doesn't become music until someone wills it to be music, and the audience listening to it decides to perceive it as music.

Most people can't deal with that abstraction -- or don't want to. They say: "Gimme the tune. Do I like this tune? Does it sound like another tune that I like? The more familiar it is, the better I like it. Hear those three notes there? Those are the three notes I can sing along with. I like those notes very, very much. Give me a beat. Not a fancy one. Give me a GOOD BEAT -- something I can dance to. It has to go boom-bap, boom-boom-BAP. If it doesn't, I will hate it very, very much. Also, I want it right away -- and then, write me some more songs like that -- over and over and over again, because I'm really into music.”
Frank Zappa

He also said the following which could be applied to this thread and several others -

“The creation and destruction of harmonic and 'statistical' tensions is essential to the maintenance of compositional drama. Any composition (or improvisation) which remains consonant and 'regular' throughout is, for me, equivalent to watching a movie with only 'good guys' in it, or eating cottage cheese.”
Frank Zappa

Humbly submitted for your consideration.

I bow before your Zappa knowledge! Those quotes are great. 

The reason why I mentioned Captain Beefheart, who is described in my Rock Encyclopaedia as being "visionary or bonkers" and created a new type of music that needed his brilliant "Magic Band" to play, is that when Frank Zappa was Beefheart's Producer, Zappa said that even by Zappa's standards the Captain had some bonkers ideas!!! Such as covering the drums in cardboard. And if "Lick my Decals off Baby" wasn't one of the coolest ever Captain album titles then I don't know what is!

I'd like to take another turn in this thread. Probably of no interest to anyone else but anyway. In the long piano composition that I finished a week ago I took the approach of "the composition is a recipe" rather than "I will tell the player how to play". For instance in my score I suggested points where the pianist could improvise or change my music in some ways. So what is music then? A composition can be a far more flexible interplay between composer and player than the simple black and white "you are gonna do this" score. 

 

 

"A population which generally can not, a priori, intuitively, and without any analysis whatsoever, distinguish between the value of Lachenmann and Mozart is ... "

I wonder if you would agree that "apriori, intuitively, and without analysis," that the Prokofiev Quintet, or almost any work by Prokofiev,  could be seen as far more valuable than a Sousa March?

I agree with you that, "apriori, intuitively, and without analysis," Mozart's value is far greater than that of Lachenmann.  I have no trouble with that, and I don't think anyone here has said differently, as far as I know, on these recent threads discussing the issue.

 

 

 

Are we talking cultural genocide for commercial gain?  I believe that's a fact Jack.

Corporate heads in the music 'industry' have learned a lot since the 1950's.

They have scouts that search out talent and they know how to seduce.

Add that to a culture manipulation and agenda, and you've got today's music.(not all)
Even the use of the term, conspiracy theory  is meant to dumb us down.

There are also articles about flouride and chem-trails that ironically are 'mind numbing'.

Thanks for the links, I'll watch them latter.... got to go.            RS

ps- you're not a well paid disinformation agent are you?  :>/
Kristofer Kerchiefklutsch Emerig said:

I'm betting half of the fringe subversive conspiracy theory venues out there are orchestrated by Government spooks. How does a modern elite deal with rising dissent and resistance? By usurping and becoming the resistance. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Create the forum for revolt, and then flood it with disinformation so that the salient points are inundated and the general momentum is harmlessly diffused. As all forces tend in dis-array of all directions, the resultant vector statistically tends toward zero.

Psyops techniques have evolved rapidly in the 20th century and are employed with greater subtlety and unprecedented technology than Orwell could have possibly imagined, in spite of his astounding prescience. It is now well established that the most effective means of controlling mass humanity is to reduce it to a set of  predictable mathematical field equations comprised of animal impulses, and to operate accordingly on those equations. The old methods of explicit incarceration and torture are primitive and ineffectual by comparison.

This does in fact relate to your musical topic, because such mass control depends explicitly on the breaking down of the modern intellect. Its success imperatively demands the corruption or obliteration of the fundamental gifts inherently bestowed upon man; his sense of justice, beauty, wisdom, and reason. A population which generally can not, a priori, intuitively, and without any analysis whatsoever, distinguish between the value of Lachenmann and Mozart is a fertile bed for the new junk-culture nurtured brand of corporate-communist-leftist-fascist-collectivist world domination. Such a people are so many Pavlov's dogs, and will be unequivocally ruled without effort.

Two hilarious videos for you illustrating Grayson's complete disbelief and frustration with hubris beyond comprehension:

Alan Grayson vs Hollow Spectre Bernanke

Alan Grayson vs Macabre, Lying Mannequin Coleman


 
roger stancill said:

Kristofer, I don't know Grayson or follow his commentary but..

of course, I was kidding....... but , as with listening to good music, you learn to interpret/sense

the 'gist' or heart of the work. That is also my personal problem with much of music.(today mostly

yet even with some of Bach)

If it has no heart and soul, it's just notes and noise... and, the fact that I just don't speak that

particular language. This is an aspect of why I brought up the post in the first place.

Is the idea of 'gist' or soul and essence of a work worth considering in a discussion of music?

I'm sure Orwell would forgive you as long as you conveyed the essence of his message.   RS (me)
 
Kristofer Kerchiefklutsch Emerig said:

Nah, if I were a member of the PTB, I'd have the youth on a steady diet of 16th century art. That wouldn't be conducive for producing easily manipulated sheople though, because it is something of truth, value, and substance; hence it follows by reason that I must be one of the true subversives by virtue of the filth I promote. I mean, I don't regard myself as subversive, but as Orwell famously said, "in a time of universal deceit, the act of telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act". Sorry if I didn't get that exactly verbatim, I'm too lazy to look it up right now.
 
roger stancill said:

ps- you're not a well paid disinformation agent are you?  :>/
 

Right you are Andrew IMO.... are you an artist or a player piano?

The written notes are 'the letter of the law' so to speak,

but not the spirit of the law. Is this where music finds it's

real voice?
 
andrew thornton said:

I bow before your Zappa knowledge! Those quotes are great. 

The reason why I mentioned Captain Beefheart, who is described in my Rock Encyclopaedia as being "visionary or bonkers" and created a new type of music that needed his brilliant "Magic Band" to play, is that when Frank Zappa was Beefheart's Producer, Zappa said that even by Zappa's standards the Captain had some bonkers ideas!!! Such as covering the drums in cardboard. And if "Lick my Decals off Baby" wasn't one of the coolest ever Captain album titles then I don't know what is!

I'd like to take another turn in this thread. Probably of no interest to anyone else but anyway. In the long piano composition that I finished a week ago I took the approach of "the composition is a recipe" rather than "I will tell the player how to play". For instance in my score I suggested points where the pianist could improvise or change my music in some ways. So what is music then? A composition can be a far more flexible interplay between composer and player than the simple black and white "you are gonna do this" score. 

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