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The question has come up many times here as to what is music.

Isn't that questioned answered by what you compose?

Isn't what you write a reflection of what you believe music is

and/or should be. Or are you merely imitating the efforts and

precedents established by others. This is not to suggest that

imitation and following an established form is a bad thing.

Compared to the number of composers, revolutionary innovators

are few and far between from an historical perspective.

Regardless, there are certain elements of sound and sounds that

seem to separate music from 'noise', and acceptance can be

both individual and regional.

Is there any one common characteristic, across the globe, that

qualifies and separates music from noise?

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Hello, Gavin.  I think you can whistle or hum some melodies, but not even all of those.  Many go too high or too low, or are played with trills or other ornamentation too difficult to imitate.  But if a piece of music is more than a melody, then what?  Aren't there some movements from string quartets by Beethoven, Schumann or Bartok that are just impossible to whistle, because of their complex harmonies and counterpoint? 

Gavin Znass said:

Wow, now here's a question that makes your brain hurt. I'm kind of drawing a blank here. Something you can whistle or hum?

Isn't there an old saying?  If God had intended man to be able to whistle all music, then he wouldn't have invented the orchestra.  Or if the Good Lord had intended penguins to fly and to sing, he would have given them wings and opera houses.  Something like that.

Gavin Znass said:

I don't know about that. I knew a guy who could whistle trills, but your right. That's probably like a one in a million gift, like people who know to the one billionth digit of pie or something.
 
Serenity Laine said:

Hello, Gavin.  I think you can whistle or hum some melodies, but not even all of those.  Many go too high or too low, or are played with trills or other ornamentation too difficult to imitate.  But if a piece of music is more than a melody, then what?  Aren't there some movements from string quartets by Beethoven, Schumann or Bartok that are just impossible to whistle, because of their complex harmonies and counterpoint? 

Gavin Znass said:

Wow, now here's a question that makes your brain hurt. I'm kind of drawing a blank here. Something you can whistle or hum?

Ondiblaine, the original post heading says ... what?

Does it ask,'what is music'? No.   I state that that question has come up

many times here before. (and gotten nowhere)

I had accepted that 'music' can not be defined by words.

I then, as briefly as possible, went on to suggest a different approach

and perspective. Do you see the difference in the two approaches?

It is key to opening the door to what followed. We define music by what we write.

That, in a sense is a 'free market', open to all musical entrepenures.

In an attempt to be successful with this discussion, I will stop with that

and wait for some feedback. I think it's wiser to take it 'step by step'

and keep on the same page, so to speak, that to flood the issue and

drown the post.       RS

roger stancill said:

... the original post heading says ... what?

Does it ask,'what is music'? No. ...

...  We define music by what we write.

The post heading asks,  "How can we define music?"

This raises the question, how do we define the word "define."

To define means, to "state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of..." something.

A definition is "a statement of the exact meaning of a word ..."

Presumably the thread remains open to the possibility that music can be described, that a statement about it can be made.  I notice you are using words, during this discussion.

I don't know what you mean to accomplish by bringing in "musical entrepreneurs."  Would you want to bring in "musical proletarians" as well, or people who won't fall neatly into some socio-economic category?

You suggest "We define music by what we write." But another problem then arises:  we have to use verbal language to explain what the music we write implies for any definition.  So we are back at the beginning. "How can we define music?"  The truth is "we" can "define" what we call "music" in several different ways, using words. That does not mean music is indefinable.

O.... you haven't changed a bit.

Then let's not think of music as a word.

let's say that we can describe, but not define music.

What was represented by the monolith in the movie

2001?   It was 'a shape for something that had no shape.'

We can define the word monolith, but monolith does not

define the concept. If we say that the 'monolith' represents music,

and that all music is contained within it's defined boundries,

then anything outside of those defined boundries would not be music.

Since you can't handle the term ' musical entrepenures'

without going all catiwhompus, then instead let's say

'original music creators', without all the political connotations

you seem so entrenched in.

I'm suggesting that no, you can't define music, and actually

shouldn't even try to. And, that this will also keep music free of

any boundries imposed by a definition, thus maintaining the

open and free process of creativity and an unfettered evolution

of ideas and works.

Can you use the same words to describe Mozart's music that you

would to describe Schoenberg's, and relate a clear understanding

to someone else? Neither descripition would define music.

"Can you use the same words to describe Mozart's music that you

would to describe Schoenberg's, and relate a clear understanding

to someone else?"

Yes, I can.  But I'm taking a nap now.  Shshshsh, please.  If you really want me to answer that, please ask me again, when I wake up. 

Or ask Gavin Znass.  I have no idea whether he is appearing to me in a dream state or if he has any kind of substantive existence at all.  Let me know, if you find out, please.  It's probably you-know-who.  (No, not him.  The other one.)

Gavin, don't be fooled, its nothing of the kind.

Jack Squat maybe, on a bender.      Just trying to have a bit of fun

in between my job and my hobbies.    RS

ps- any thoughts on the subject at hand?


 
Gavin Znass said:

I feel steeped in intelligentness in the middle of this conversation. Its like Jack Handy on crack cocaine or something.

It makes you wonder if Elizabeth Taylor could track a fugitive over long distances like that.

Who is Elizabeth Taylor?  Is he related to Taylor Swift?  I know they are both musicians, but not much more than that.

Mr. Znass, are you related to Znass of "Znass Transport."

Dobrodosli na nasih spletnih straneh

Naša primarna dejavnost je mednarodni cestni transport, v katerem je vključena celovita logistična podpora. Z našimi vozili in profesionalno usposobljeno ekipo voznikov Vam hitro in kvalitetno dostavimo oziroma prevzamemo blago na področju Evrope.

More importantly, would you consider the sound of a Znass Transport engine to be "music," in line with what has already been said during this conversation?

I can't even define "Elizabeth Taylor."  That's hard enough.  Is he easier to define than "music?"

Gavin Znass........ very clever     Gavin Znass

So Dave, you admit that you enjoy antagonizing and attempting to point out

others possible failures. That is really sad, and a sad life to live.

It reminds me of a Fricken dullard I once met who had no real life

of his own.  Small people belittle others and try to get even.

You must be very tiny. Wait, let me get my magnifying glass....

Oh, there you are. What a pathetic waste of potential. What are you, 12 years old?


 
CYBERCOP said:

CYBERCOP IS PLEASED HIS ASSESSMENT HAS ANNOYED THE STANCILL INTO WHAT CYBERCOP BELIEVES IS KNOWN AS "FAILED SARCASM"

roger stancill said:

My my says the 'sly guy', the shrewd dude strikes again, with his rapier wit

and cutting remarks.

It's somewhat ironic, and he probabably doesn't even realize it, but

he has actually made a contribution to the discussion.

He is demonstrating the noise side of the equation as compared to

the harmonic or musical side of the discussion. Well done.

It took me a second to figure this out, but wow man, you are subtle.

ps- hey Dave, I'm glad you have found an identity      RS

Gavin, I'm a thinkin you are a dreamer. I sense, waay too much work.

Kris, give me a break. What, you don't think, I can cuss like

a sailor or talk about your mother? That's your man gauge?

What fricken high horse?  Isn't this a family show.

You really have no room to talk.

At least for me, it's a matter of choice.

Do we really want to turn these discussions into a 'Rap' session? ;>/

And what ever happened to the notion or idea of good 'sportsmanship'.

Hell, look at sports now.

I marvel at how serious you drama queens take all this.

This is the internet, prove your 'manliness' to your wife and kids.

You can't possibly know me by how I present myself on the

internet ..... Mr. Znass       and yes, I close with.... Peace brother                   

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