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Hello fellow composers, I would greatly appreciate if you take a listen and share some thoughts - I'm very content with this one and think I learned a lot in the last months.

Nothing revolutionary I guess but I just try to emulate the music I like the most which is (late)romantic in style. 

The piece consists of one part which is repeated three times, each time an Instrument ist added (the clarinet in the second part and the violin in the third part). The first parts ends at 0:58 seconds.  

The base harmonies  are mostly played by brass and Alphorn :)

Each repetition has some slight variations and different endings.

So my main focus lies in trying to create tonal ambiguity, playing with implied cadences and the listeners expectations. I also try to bring out orchestral and instrumental colors and trying to induce extra rhythm with the help of the variation of expressions and Timbres of the instruments. 

https://soundcloud.com/hive_mind/fantasie-nr-3

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See if this is any closer.

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Probably :)

Thanks, much better I guess!

I was fiddling with the programm, trying to "compress" the notes a bit more but I just messed up everything by trying that lol.

Bob Porter said:

See if this is any closer.

Here is something of my attempts that I think is ok, but it's not really what I want and I don't like it that much to be honest.

https://soundcloud.com/hive_mind/experimenting/s-27pxx

Experimenting.pdf

Yes. When constructing synthetic scales for example, you can control the intervallic tension/relaxation by choosing more or less semitone steps in the scale. Similarly, when then constructing harmony, you can build with any mixture of intervals that can exploit consonance or dissonance. One can also use chromatic alteration to temper a chord if it was felt necessary and doing this is also a means to enable modulation. You can use functional processes to achieve the "longing for resolution", or you can choose to not resolve in expanded tonality.

Berg uses a mixture of serialism and implies more traditional harmony in his Violin Concerto and the row he uses is a clear example of how to set up a scale (row) that is rich in tonal and atonal potential. Don't forget too that synthetic scales need not only consist of seven notes and when building chords, always create many different structures (you wouldn't limit yourself to just major triads in tonality would you!). Julie has mentioned Messiaen and he also often incorporates traditional harmony alongside dissonance, which is also a direct result of harmony derived from his scales (modes).


Timo Schuemer said:

Hey Mike, thank you for giving me these insights, it all makes sense because all of the function is derived from "longing for resolution", so naturally you will find the same or similar longings in dissonant chords or atonal progressions.
Has anyone ever tried to build atonality or strong dissonance in between regular functional chord progressions?


Mike Hewer said:

Timo

you can always create synthetic scales and build bespoke chordal formations on them the way you do with tonal scales and triads. Dissonance is often relative and one can easily temper or increase it when building chords in a synthetic scale. You can also apply procedures associated with tonal thinking using these techniques, things like modulation, chromatic alteration, enharmonic changes, pivot chords and with proper handling, make a dissonance functional.

Resolution of dissonance is also context dependant and there is no theoretical imperative to resolve it in a pan-tonal/ atonal environment beyond any musical desire of the composer, or if it becomes functionally necessary.

Julie, I just wrote something today that feels very stolen from Messaien (this sort of harmony anyway), but in a different context.  I think you posting this a few weeks back had it simmering in my brain...  Thanks!

Julie Harris said:

Hello Timo-

When I heard your first chord, I was entranced!  I thought your piece would be a glorious Messiaen-like experience.  I still liked your piece even though you resolved the delicious dissonances instead of building a new world with them.  I would have liked it better, though, if you had dared to stay with the power of that first chord.  Messiaen starts with the same chord in his last composition, as you may hear in the example below.  Instead of resolving his dissonances, he builds envelopes of sound with similar intervals and chords, based on his Second Mode of Limited Transposition:

I couldn't find a link to just the first movement, so here's the entire piece.  The first movement is the one that I find similar to your opening chord, but the entire piece is one of my favorite approaches to "modern music".  He completed this piece in 1991, just before his death in 1992.

I want to hear it, please :)

John Driscoll said:

Julie, I just wrote something today that feels very stolen from Messaien (this sort of harmony anyway), but in a different context.  I think you posting this a few weeks back had it simmering in my brain...  Thanks!

Julie Harris said:

Hello Timo-

When I heard your first chord, I was entranced!  I thought your piece would be a glorious Messiaen-like experience.  I still liked your piece even though you resolved the delicious dissonances instead of building a new world with them.  I would have liked it better, though, if you had dared to stay with the power of that first chord.  Messiaen starts with the same chord in his last composition, as you may hear in the example below.  Instead of resolving his dissonances, he builds envelopes of sound with similar intervals and chords, based on his Second Mode of Limited Transposition:

I couldn't find a link to just the first movement, so here's the entire piece.  The first movement is the one that I find similar to your opening chord, but the entire piece is one of my favorite approaches to "modern music".  He completed this piece in 1991, just before his death in 1992.

Thanks again Mike, very helpful and idea inspiring!

Mike Hewer said:

Yes. When constructing synthetic scales for example, you can control the intervallic tension/relaxation by choosing more or less semitone steps in the scale. Similarly, when then constructing harmony, you can build with any mixture of intervals that can exploit consonance or dissonance. One can also use chromatic alteration to temper a chord if it was felt necessary and doing this is also a means to enable modulation. You can use functional processes to achieve the "longing for resolution", or you can choose to not resolve in expanded tonality.

Berg uses a mixture of serialism and implies more traditional harmony in his Violin Concerto and the row he uses is a clear example of how to set up a scale (row) that is rich in tonal and atonal potential. Don't forget too that synthetic scales need not only consist of seven notes and when building chords, always create many different structures (you wouldn't limit yourself to just major triads in tonality would you!). Julie has mentioned Messiaen and he also often incorporates traditional harmony alongside dissonance, which is also a direct result of harmony derived from his scales (modes).


Timo Schuemer said:

Hey Mike, thank you for giving me these insights, it all makes sense because all of the function is derived from "longing for resolution", so naturally you will find the same or similar longings in dissonant chords or atonal progressions.
Has anyone ever tried to build atonality or strong dissonance in between regular functional chord progressions?


Mike Hewer said:

Timo

you can always create synthetic scales and build bespoke chordal formations on them the way you do with tonal scales and triads. Dissonance is often relative and one can easily temper or increase it when building chords in a synthetic scale. You can also apply procedures associated with tonal thinking using these techniques, things like modulation, chromatic alteration, enharmonic changes, pivot chords and with proper handling, make a dissonance functional.

Resolution of dissonance is also context dependant and there is no theoretical imperative to resolve it in a pan-tonal/ atonal environment beyond any musical desire of the composer, or if it becomes functionally necessary.

Hey Em, yes, you noticed that time-element correctly! I have always been a fan of drones and long notes, because it gives me a "floating in space" feeling.

It also sort of creates a surface, area or grounding, on which the rest of the music can do its magic.

"Basicly, it seems one can alter the tendency a chord wants to move to by holding it longer or shorter than what seems natural"

Exactly, and I think there is a lot of unused potential in this approach you describe here!

Em Coston, (MM) said:

In your experiment example from about 1:21 to 1:36 there is an interesting combination of subtle pitch changes and note undulations that start to form an interesting motif. It might be interesting to have that rise to the foreground at some point.

That functional dissonance link is interesting, thanks for sharing.  

Sometimes I like to see how long of a chord progression I can write that almost sounds tonal but doesn't stick to any scale before reaching a resolve. (So far 31 chords has been my longest one.) This sounds off topic, but one thing I've noticed is that there is an element of time at play in this exercise that might also be relevant for functional dissonance. Basicly, it seems one can alter the tendency a chord wants to move to by holding it longer or shorter than what seems natural. It may be an illusion or it might be something to think about.

Hi, since the feedback to this piece was so overwhelmingly positive I share the revised version.

I did not change much harmony or melody but broke up the structure, which was more like a loop. It is still a loop but in a more inctricate way.

Thus the build up is more interesting and diverse, giving the piece more time and flow to unfold its themes and harmonies. Also the climax is cleared up (I felt it was a sonority puree in the first version). The ending and final cadence is improved and there are many little subtle details in the expression and dynamics of the instruments I changed to humanize it further. Enjoy.

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