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Hi all!

 

I'm one of those people that claim they don't follow specific forms when writing, and really i don't. I find minuet forms and symphony forms very limiting. But yet i still seem to fall into this pattern when i write of what may be considered an Allegro to a slower section then back to an allegro, or the same pattern inverse.

 

I just wanted to know what everyone else thought. Are forms a good way to keep music relevant(entertaining to its listeners, easy to listen to?) or are they limiting? Do our patterns in writing come from the music we hear ourselves?

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First of all we have to devise forms in two categories: 1.generals form as mono, binary and ternary (associated with all subcategories) and 2. forms related to historical periods: fugue, rondo, sonata, variations. First category you can "use" withuot problems, only keep the new (modern) harmony  stile, rhythm, melody... But with second category have to be careful - these forms are exponent of that  historical periods - baroque, classic, romantic. If you will construct your sonata with tonal contrast between first and second theme this is totally obsolete, surpassed! You have to find another type of contrast between this two theme and etc. Finally, if you are composer, you have to know the musical forms, its the same important like, ryth, harmony, melody!
But what limits us to take the sonata form, and change something? Sure, it will not be the form laid down by beethoven, but we can do whatever we want. It's our music after all. In fact, in all musical history, that's how things progressed. Someone wrote something "obsolete"
But I agree you need to know the forms-the best way to break a rule is to know it pretty damn well.
Vlad Burlea said:
But with second category have to be careful - these forms are exponent of that  historical periods - baroque, classic, romantic. If you will construct your sonata with tonal contrast between first and second theme this is totally obsolete, surpassed! You have to find another type of contrast between this two theme and etc. Finally, if you are composer, you have to know the musical forms, its the same important like, ryth, harmony, melody!
Lots of "have tos" in there.  Have to in order to do what exactly?

Vlad Burlea said:
First of all we have to devise forms in two categories: 1.generals form as mono, binary and ternary (associated with all subcategories) and 2. forms related to historical periods: fugue, rondo, sonata, variations. First category you can "use" withuot problems, only keep the new (modern) harmony  stile, rhythm, melody... But with second category have to be careful - these forms are exponent of that  historical periods - baroque, classic, romantic. If you will construct your sonata with tonal contrast between first and second theme this is totally obsolete, surpassed! You have to find another type of contrast between this two theme and etc. Finally, if you are composer, you have to know the musical forms, its the same important like, ryth, harmony, melody!

Hi!!

 

I don't know what is the problem with writing in certain forms. If you like to do that, do it!! If not, don't. Anyway I hear a lot of different music, in different styles. Some very modern, some very old. Is that a problem? To me it seems that there is no more one way to compose anymore whereas in the past there was more thing called 'rules'. 

But about the question whether or not forms are limiting, I think it could be useful to compose, in order not to get lost in your own music with your own ideas. I think true freedom comes with certain rules, otherwise you get chaos, also in music (not only trafic). 

I think you could use forms, and make your own idea. I liked the answer that Spyrus gave. If you want to do your own thing in a form, you'll need to know the form really well. 

Well, good luck everyone!!

 

Hyun Jung

SpyrusTV-

In there we can fit all sorts of things, we can change it and bend it to our liking.

 

ie.  Make it your own.

Campy

Let me to explain : 

-composition in music is a complex activity with a lot of components requiring theoretical and practical knowledge, not "rules" - knowledge, that help you to realize your idea. In a 3-4 min. composition, no problem, is easy to do, but in an instrumental work with a complex drama plan as symphony, instr. concert, fantasy for some instr, variations, etc., can you do without knowledge? Absolutely no! This  I means "have to" . About "obsolete", "surpassed": professional musical activity, over 800 years! (since Gregorian chants) has created some "standarts", "principles" to determining what is good and what is not good in music and keeping in mind this ”standarts” you can do something interesting and original. Its a big difference between ”originality” and ”amateurism” .”Originality” is based on knowledge,  ”amateurism” - is based on our knowledge!

Finely you can do whatever you want, nobody can say you nothing! but, is your work interesting for somebody else, have your work an artistic level?

Good luck to all!

this is a hobby, as no one would PAY me, lol...

 

yet for what its worth to ME, iit took me a while to realize, when starting from scratch... that maybe "half" of what I really liked t listen to, seemed to be in pentatonic minor.

 

do I mean that half the trax I like I suspect are in Pent min? or that 50% "of" each tracks apppreciation is because its in Pent Min?

 

*shrugs* cant decide, lol... I just know my ear likes it...

 

for FORM? Hmmm...

 

I (personally) like binary, and for some odd reason, "ABACAB"

 

but... once I found "sonata form", I just fell in love wth it, adn always return to it...

 

*shrugs* I dont know the WHY, I just know that I DO....

 

Hmmm...

 

its all so personal. And everyones a critic! Heck, we all know if we like it or not...

 

now, this quote from above:

 

"If you will construct your sonata with tonal contrast between first and second theme this is totally obsolete, surpassed!"

 

For the poster, this is whats "right". For me? *no*... when i was first figuring out what form WAS, and seeing which form(s) I liked personally (if i dont like it, i dont want to work on it, advantage of not being paid, lol)..... well, I ran across a LOT of stuff on the internet, where some "expert" woul say something like "ho hum. yet a-NOTHER boring tonal piece. How trite. Thought we had FINALLY pu that boring childish tonal stuff to rest!"

 

yet curiously, when I went and searched for ANYthing that the "expert" saying it on the web had ever made? *found nothing*... and, well... people still download and listen to Beethoven, eh? LMAO...

 

but, this is all so PERSONAL and really a "taste" question...

 

me personally? I appreciate some Jazz for its technical merits, but, a lot of it has this "sound" I dont really like. I dunno... I think its the constant "infliction" of constant 7ths and 9ths that gives, to ME anyways, a "buzzing" sound I dont enjoy. Naturally, plemnty of peopl rave about it, and for them its obviously the pinnacle of 20th century achievement in music *shrugs* to each musician, and his audience... their own.

 

heck... if all I coul DO was "imitate Beethoven" I should think I had achieved something, and feel very fulfilled...

 

on another (non classical) music site I'm on... I hear a lot of people say things like "oh, theory is crap! its just a cookie cutter to make crap music automatically!" which I really dont think is fair... at all.....

 

heck, I keep second guessing myself... thinking I am "immature" or "not advanced enough palette" to appreciate Jazz, or... non-tonal music... because I HEAR this so much, and I dont know why, I just like to sound of tonal, and the forms I like.

 

*shrugs*

 

I suppose if someone PAID ME to try to write a 12-tone piece, well, certainly I'd try it, but... until paid, I simply cant work on something I dont LIKE the sound of it. Which for ME, means tonal, and usually binary or sonata form...

 

Its just a taste thing. I like salty and not very spicy stuff..... my old lady? sweet stuff and spicy stuff.... go gigure, we're two different people...

 

but for me, when I hear people "trash" tonal music, as somehow "childish" and "naive"... I go listen to beethovens 5th, and am reaffirmed that THIS is where its at. Power... majesty... contrast.... delicate beauty... hard, heavy parts... its all rolled up into one big burrito I like the taste (sound) of...

 

 

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