media music - art or craft?

[pete whitfield]

This came out of a forum discussion a while back where Chris Alpiar talked about the artistic merit of media music (film music in particular) compared to (oh I'm going to struggle for a term here!) art or concert or classical music.

Many of the composers in this community write media music; do you consider your work to be art or craft? Or perhaps how do you see the balance between the 2, as the cliche '1% inspiration, 99% perspiration' may ring true for many!

Is the natural home of contemporary music with images (music to picture)? I suggest that no other arena allows a composer to draw together so many influences and cross so many musical borders than music to picture. There are parallels here with opera I feel, where historically composers have found the marriage of drama, visual imagery and music is the ultimate home for their work. (At least with film you don't have to listen to that dreadful warbling - sorry, just had to get that off my chest!)

Referring back to the original discussion, Chris felt that media music might not throw up the next great 'art' composer. But with movies providing some powerful emotional experiences, is film the best contemporary home for music, and part of the art form that is film?

Update - 25th October 2008. If you are coming to this discussion hoping to get involved in the original topic, I would try starting a new forum discussion, as somewhere along the line it evolved (disintegrated? was hijacked?) into something equally interesting - (the future of music as a commercial industry, and in particular the effect of new technologies.

[phil Kelly]

cool ..just making sure ..

sometimes divining ones intent on the internet is at best
problematic.

agreed: for the most part, the composer has historically had a "client" who calls the tune -and sometimes interferes artistically as well. ( starting with the church, through the court royalty, right up to the present day corporate behemoths as represented by their respective ad agencies.

Practically the only composers who still write "pure" music are those in the academic field -and THEY are often doing it as a sop to their quest for the golden fleece of the almighty tenure!

I must admit a distaste for much "academic" music since much of it seems to be intended to primarily impress other academic composers and not to be intended to be palatable melodically or harmonically to the average "ear" of the music consumer.

[Evan Evans]

Phil,

Allow me to posit, that aesthetic standards are not set by bean counters, etc. It's that these "bean counters" accept lower aesthetic standards than is the best aesthetic standards. It's thus up to the composer to write in a way that satisfies the Client's("bean counter") standards, and simultaneously works at the highest levels. And to me, I've only known one modern composer in film who could mechanically pull that off ... Goldsmith ... and before him, but not a contemporar: Herrmann.

It's what a composer fits inside the aesthetic form that makes them the composer of prowess that they are. I think Howard Shore comes close. Elliot Goldenthal.

[phil Kelly]

Evan:

I certainly agree with all the composers you mention as being excellent examples of reconciling the eaesthetic and mammon :)
I'd also add to that list much of John Williams "non Star Wars"
work.

Williams score to "Witches of Eastwick" was delightful in a quasi -Prokoffian manner, and " Schindlers List " was likewise very emotional and non intrusive.

Of the earlier generation of composers, I'd add Hugo Friedhofer, Leonard Rosenmann ,and Alex North to your list as well.

[Evan Evans]

Oh yes of course. Not sure how I forgot Williams. And Leonard Rosenman is one of my favorites.

[Jan Civil]

I think when you have to satisfy the demands of a corporation, a hollywood motion picture for instance, it's going to be difficult to have and maintain such a vision as what we tend to value in 'a work of art'. It's art by committee... or a more direct way to say it, maybe too many cooks spoil the broth.
I am hoping to embark on scoring for picture. I personally would wish to not be confused that "work for hire" needs to be the same area as "my own work". I would endeavor that the quality of the cues and themes be the highest I can manage, but to have no illusions that it's trying to be a work of art.

The most successful film composers can really be such total hacks. There is nothing wrong with this! But it's a fact of life. It can be a corrupting behavior. You won't convince me that, because of his extremely high level of craft, that John Williams is a great artist. 'If an artist at all', isn't that compelling a question to me, but what he does isn't great art in my book. It's an excellent musician whoring out and doing really well for himself, and the value of production and quality control is quite reliable. [rant alert]You get someone THIS commercial doing stuff like he did for Obama's inauguration, which was present Appalachian Spring, basically in raw terms, with some cute hot licks for the fiddlers and pipers kind of tacked on, in a 'new arrangement' and saying "this is 'Air: Simple Gifts' arrangement by John Williams". No, it's Williams copying a great composer and acting like we're none the wiser. Which he's The Best at. And this, I Guess, is something which can happen immersed in intense commercial focus, in Hollywood and making tons o bucks, you could become that guy.[/rant concludes]

[Chris Alpiar]

haha Jan! Be prepared for some flames as I can almost guarantee you a lot of folks will consider J.W. and artist in the high art sense of it and not a commercial hack, regardless of how much you give his technique props. I will say that I have heard *some* of his works and been quite impressed with the artistic nature of his ideas (like the score to 'Catch me if you can', a piece that my good friend Daniel and I have talked about recently. In general I think I understand your position and agree, having been given the blessing of checking out real innovators like Coltrane and Hermeto Pasqual and such. And as my definition of artist includes being an innovator, really *creating* something new. Something that Mr. Williams has not accomplished, even while his list of accomplishments is extensive and quite amazing. For the sake of diplomacy I might suggest starting with an easier target, like Hans Zimmer or something though ;-) (heeeheeee! good stuff!)

[Jan Civil]

I prefer Hans Zimmer, then! Hans Zimmer can rock!

(I hadn't even seen the references to JW in this thread, I was just responding to the topic)
[Mr Burns]EX cellent....[/Mr Burns]

I have had some entertaining discussions taking this tack on JW.
Every_single_thing_John Williams has_ever_done he found a model for it and copied it. He has the chops to kinda sorta alter it enough, and to get his licks in. He's also a master of that cornball sort of jazz I don't like.

I've gone after Big Ol Oscar Peterson. I'll do it!! LOL. I'd never get anywhere in teh diplomatic corps, what.

[Chris Alpiar]

roflmao! I like you more every post! Just take it easy on Oscar! He is such a swingin' mofo! But yea hes not an innovator the same way that say Art Tatum was, but still swingin' like a gate!

[Jan Civil]

you're totally right! well, not totally. some of us have no job at all. some of us, like Frank Zappa, made entertainment which supported the serious work and didn't corrupt but informed it in interesting ways. I don't personally object to commercial behavior as corrupting necessarily; but if the client is foremost in your mind, Maybe So. Personally I love me some rock music, if it's done well; it's the area I started in, and I'm not gonna repudiate it. I think it's art as much as if not more then any Mozart... even objectively, if the object is substantial enough.

... but classical music didn't tend to be art qua art most times did it. Mozart was trying to be commercial, no doubt. The culture done canonized a lot of things and forgot about what actually happened then.

But ME, I'm as pure as the driven snow as "music artist". ;)

[phil Kelly]

Ohmygawd Jan ..Jan ..

Hans ZIMMER ? You just picked one of the BIGGEST hacks in LA!
He;s a mediocre rock guitarist with a golden gift of bullshit thats made him the darling of a bunch of directors! A large portion of his output is achieved by a whole stable of young composers who work on his premises and deal with given cues on an ad hoc basis ( I dont know whether or not they receive composers royalties for their work or just write in a ghost fashion ) THATs how Zimmer manages to crank out some much dreck! The process he uses is the same as existed in the ad business when I started in the 60s
( a bunch of staff writers on a salary - sometimes you were paid a sop for playing on the sessions -but no reuse - and everything you wrote was WFH!! ) Back in those days ,they called them "jingle mills" ..Zimmer has applied the same concept to film scoring:

"scoring mills" YECCHHH!!!

If you want some excellent young composers who can actually COMPOSE -try David and Thomas Newman ( of the famous film family ), James Newton Howard, Eliot Goldenthal, Rachel Portman,
Joel Goldsmith, Alan Silvestri, Joel McNeely, John Debney, among many others I could cite ....


BTW: I cut my orchestral teeth on rock and Roll in the 70s doing the George Martin thing for a number of rock acts that wanted to do the prog rock with orchestra approach -some of it turned out quite well ..and was definitely in the realm of "art"

[Jan Civil]

LOL. Yeah, he kinda does suck I guess. He's got a good handle on sound though. Hey, if I were him I would do the same thing. You know Lalo Schifrin? He got a whole factory of Chinese kids or something doing that for him. And, why not? It's Hollywood.

And, I didn't pick 'im! Dude said, "go after Zimmer, you're safer"! I've heard some things where I went, that's so lame, some things where it sounded good to me. I'm no critic really, except for this whole kinda John Wiliams is god thing.

Howard Shore is the dude IME.

But you have GOT to be effing kidding me with this Alan Silvestri character. He makes John Williams look like Igor Stravinsky. If you were ever up for a gig, and your demo was WAY better than Alan Silvestri's and just as you KNEW was gonna happen he gets the gig anyway, cause he fellated the right producer one time, you'd hate him as much as I do!!!

I'm kinda kidding about Oscar. He does swing more than anybody. I just lose the thread with circle of fifths with a couple substitushums like it's so luxurious. Some idiot on a forum took a thread in the direction of "classical vs rock", and I made a new one, "Oscar Peterson vs Cyndi Lauper". Just to see what kind of considered debate there would be on something so absurd.

[phil Kelly]

Jan:

I'm definitely down with you on Howard Shore .. he can deal !

But y'all better cut Lalo some serious slack! -you're talking about another one of the guys that's righteous here -no chinese kids with samplers in HIS back bedroom! He does the real shit -with REAL players. REAL rhythms sections .he can even write
on REAL score paper with a pencil. ( something we all used to do before we all became pussies and went over to Finale and Sibelius :) )

Other guys of my generation that can really write include Dave Grusin, Johnny Mandel, and the Late Elmer Bernstein andof course , the guv'ner Bob Farnon!!

dunno those names ?

time to do some research Jan baby !!