media music - art or craft?

[pete whitfield]

This came out of a forum discussion a while back where Chris Alpiar talked about the artistic merit of media music (film music in particular) compared to (oh I'm going to struggle for a term here!) art or concert or classical music.

Many of the composers in this community write media music; do you consider your work to be art or craft? Or perhaps how do you see the balance between the 2, as the cliche '1% inspiration, 99% perspiration' may ring true for many!

Is the natural home of contemporary music with images (music to picture)? I suggest that no other arena allows a composer to draw together so many influences and cross so many musical borders than music to picture. There are parallels here with opera I feel, where historically composers have found the marriage of drama, visual imagery and music is the ultimate home for their work. (At least with film you don't have to listen to that dreadful warbling - sorry, just had to get that off my chest!)

Referring back to the original discussion, Chris felt that media music might not throw up the next great 'art' composer. But with movies providing some powerful emotional experiences, is film the best contemporary home for music, and part of the art form that is film?

Update - 25th October 2008. If you are coming to this discussion hoping to get involved in the original topic, I would try starting a new forum discussion, as somewhere along the line it evolved (disintegrated? was hijacked?) into something equally interesting - (the future of music as a commercial industry, and in particular the effect of new technologies.

[Evan Evans]

Brad Fiedel? What's to study?

[Evan Evans]

I am unaware of any innovations attributed to Brad Fiedel. Any sources? I'd refer a student to study Wendy Carlos before Brad Fiedel.

Anyway, I am glad to see Jerry Goldsmith on your list, and John Williams not on it, but I would add Bernard Herrmann. The composers who created a language of their own for the art, that others could only copy and derive from. Those are the source inspirations of the art.

[phil Kelly]

One wonders who ACTUALLY contributed to the scores you've cited ( Gladiator and Batman # ??? ) Zimmer seems to have the charm and contacts to get all the gigs he does, but I still question exactly how much of the heavy lifting he actually does.

[Chris Alpiar]

yea I would love to know what really goes down behind the doors of his factory. I have heard stories of people who worked there for years who give it all up to go into real estate or something to save themselves

[phil Kelly]

Well ..call me an old fart ( which I guess I am ) , but I think the massive invasion of the electronic and sampling technology has ( to my ear ) reduced the overall individuality of the modern scoring process.

My career basically started when the Moog and ARP monophonic synths arrived , so I have employed electronics in my scores since the 70s ( as well as done entire scores with those unweildy beasts with the help of a musician who understood those things! )

My approach to electronics has always been they serve to supply another vital and individual set of unique orchestrational colors to add to my trick bag
along with the tried and true acoustic instruments.

By the time high end instrumental sampling came into use to REPLACE the live players, I felt uncomfortable with that option. Even the very best samples ( unless properly and carefully massaged thus consuming more time ) do not sound like actual players playing the parts.

( Having said that, I must add that I just completed a sampled project with one of our very talented composer associates on this board - Chris
Alpier -where he realized several symphonic arrangements I did for a vocalist who used Chris' versions of my backgrounds in conjunction with a live rhythm section. )

I was totally blown away with what Chris was able to achieve with his technological expertise. I also know how long it took him to get the results he did.

I would post one of the completed scores here except for the fact that the copyright restriction will not allow it.

[Evan Evans]

Honestly, I can hear his contribution. His scores are absolutely great, Rainman for instance. Driving Miss Daisy. He slaves over every note, and I can hear that clearly. But when he isn't the sole composer I can hear it in an instant. It's not as polished, perfect, or well produced.

It's a different kind of listening than Stravinsky, but if you train your ear to what Hans truly is bringing to the table, you might be able to find him in there. I can hear very much when he puts his hand into the pie.

Do I like him when I know it's just him? That's another debate. But respects are due. He is talented at something, even if it's not what snobby art composers would call music.

[Evan Evans]

There is only enough money to go around to those who deserve it. By my companies estimates, there are in the neighborhood of 3000% more composers in the marketplace than needed. So some don't make it. So what? They didn't have what it takes. Flip burgers, houses, sell cars, move back home with mom and dad, go back to school, etc. There's nothing that Hans Zimmer is doing to anyone that they didn't create for themselves one way or another.

[pete whitfield]

Do I get a prize or award or something for starting this thread! LOL! (Shoosh, if only I'd known....) I think I started this in a former life actually! Great to read the debate ladies and gentlemen. My work let's me see the work of some media composers and I have the utmost respect for them as their job goes way beyond putting notes in the right order!

[Chris Alpiar]

Other than exploit them. The tales I heard werent about guys that sucked, but guys that worked at Remote Control for years, pulling back to back all nighters all year long. I cant quote the source because he specifically said he would deny it if asked (for fear of losing his gig there). I guess its just the concept of putting someone's name on some work when it wasnt really their work, or only in the most loose of terms. I dont know, maybe if someday I got the opportunity to work there I might change my mind, but from a clueless outsider's perspective it seems kind of out-of-whack

[phil Kelly]

No doubt Zimmer does the "leg "work : getting the gigs, massaging the clients, other such essentials if there is to BE a gig at all.

...it's the actual heavy lifting ( conceiving and writing the stuff, orchestrating and /or programming, etc )
that's in question here.

[phil Kelly]

( Ronnie asks )
>>What has you so vehemently questioning this about him, Phil? I'm not attacking you, by the way, I'm just really interested, as I've never heard anyone speak of Zimmer in this context?

Ronnie:

I'm not the only one here mentioning or questioning some of Zimmers practices -( Read Chris Alpiers post right up the page ) and talk to some young working composers in LA.

Aside from the fact that I personally have not heard any of his work that I've liked, HZ isn't the only ( or the first ) "user" in the scoring businesss. It's an all too common practice.

In an area of the film industry where there are estimated to be an oversupply of approximately 300% in ratio to available gigs to "composers" , such predatory tactics are inevitable but nontheless
prevalent.