media music - art or craft?

[pete whitfield]

This came out of a forum discussion a while back where Chris Alpiar talked about the artistic merit of media music (film music in particular) compared to (oh I'm going to struggle for a term here!) art or concert or classical music.

Many of the composers in this community write media music; do you consider your work to be art or craft? Or perhaps how do you see the balance between the 2, as the cliche '1% inspiration, 99% perspiration' may ring true for many!

Is the natural home of contemporary music with images (music to picture)? I suggest that no other arena allows a composer to draw together so many influences and cross so many musical borders than music to picture. There are parallels here with opera I feel, where historically composers have found the marriage of drama, visual imagery and music is the ultimate home for their work. (At least with film you don't have to listen to that dreadful warbling - sorry, just had to get that off my chest!)

Referring back to the original discussion, Chris felt that media music might not throw up the next great 'art' composer. But with movies providing some powerful emotional experiences, is film the best contemporary home for music, and part of the art form that is film?

Update - 25th October 2008. If you are coming to this discussion hoping to get involved in the original topic, I would try starting a new forum discussion, as somewhere along the line it evolved (disintegrated? was hijacked?) into something equally interesting - (the future of music as a commercial industry, and in particular the effect of new technologies.

[Evan Evans]

Phil,
Seriously email me. I would like to hire you as a columnist for a website I am launching. Paid writing gig. ;)
Evan
eevans (AT) thecomposercollective.com

[Jan Civil]

Lalo's great. I read somewhere years ago he hired out most of the details of the work in his tv scores to his students. He's one of the greats in my book.

As much as I am kinda sorta making a cartoon out of it (that's what I do!), I don't see much of a problem running a business that way.

I used to write things down with one of them dark 2B pencils on score paper, I had me some real architecture on paper at one time. Still have some of it. I wouldn't waste time with it now; 2B or not 2B, that is the question! Mockups on the daw is the answer!, it's Cubase and Kontakt and BFD all the way! What century is it now, let's take a look....

Hey d'you know from the album Inside Sauter-Finegan? How bout Pete Rugolo, you ever heard o him? I grew up in the same school, old cat. Oh I get it, from my picture you think I'm just a toddler. I'm just well-preserved. ;)

Never heard of Farnon tho..

[phil Kelly]

In the 70s , "ghosting" on TV was much more common because a lot more music was being written and recorded during that time by live players, nd that meant more call for orchestrators and arrangers. ( I myself "ghosted" for Don Costa and Billy Byers when in LA from 68 70 71 )

My true Sauter -Finegan Story :



when I was a youngster ( I think about 15 ), my dad ( also a former arranger ) too me out to a local ballroom to here the Sauter - Finegan orchestra live! In addition to being blown away by the band,my dad managed to con them to come over on one of the breaks and when they found out I'd just started arranging myself, both Eddie and Bill spent ALL the breaks with me and my dad! ( This continued over the two year period the SF band was in existence: anytime the band was within 75 mi. of Canton OH we'd go see them -and Eddie and Bill remembered our names -and even looked over a couple of my early score efforts!

Later on, when I turned "pro", I'd occasionally speak with Bill Finnegan on the phone when whatever band I was with was in NYC. I'm very sad we'd lost touch at the time of his death.

Take my advice ..check out Bob Farnon!

[Jan Civil]

Wow. No shit. My dad was into them from some arranging they'd done he was aware of (he was mainly into Stan Kenton, and had done promo or some schleppy thing at one time for the Kenton orch), and had this one album, which was a pretty bizarre object. I guess it was a kind of tweak to my little teenage mind, I might have been like 13, 14.. I was a rock 'n roll drummer, and I'd sit in with the piano trio at the supper club he tried to have. They'd do shit like call out a ballad requiring brushes in 5/4, which seems unlikely to even have in the rep... how convenient... just to cut me.

TV music was really good at one time. When I was first kinda on the street getting a sonorous vocabulary, we called any kind of interesting, you know quartal/quintal/secondal stack, or pungent alteration a 'tv chord' back then.

I'd have liked to seen the tv music business first hand, esp the recording sessions, they had to have their shit together then.

[Ronnie Doyle]

I'm actually delighted someone has finally said something about Zimmer's work as a composer!! Thank you Phil! I've never been a massive fan of Zimmer, altho I think you have to acknowledge his work on Gladiator and The Nolan Batman movies as pretty darned excellent. But I see alot of young and upcoming composers citing him as their number one influence!!?? Christ, when they could be studying Arvo Part, Elliot Goldenthal, Christopher Young, Brad Fiedel, John Frizzell, Jerry Goldsmith, Max Steiner, Franz Waxman, Miklos Rosza, to name a few...they cite ZIMMER??! I get so much grief from my college friends (big Zimmer fans) about my attitude toward him, but I think it's warranted. And there was even one report from a while ago stating that Zimmer is the "main"candidate to take John Williams' place at the top of the composing mountain once he retires??!! Huh????!

[Evan Evans]

Brad Fiedel? What's to study?

[Ronnie Doyle]

Don't get me wrong Evan, I'm not trying to imply Fiedel as a genius composer by any means, but he's widely regarded to have created a unique and innovative approach to using synthesizers and electronics. And I think, because alot of young these days work electronically, I don't see why Fiedel shouldn't be on there go-to list in terms of inspiration.

[Evan Evans]

I am unaware of any innovations attributed to Brad Fiedel. Any sources? I'd refer a student to study Wendy Carlos before Brad Fiedel.

Anyway, I am glad to see Jerry Goldsmith on your list, and John Williams not on it, but I would add Bernard Herrmann. The composers who created a language of their own for the art, that others could only copy and derive from. Those are the source inspirations of the art.

[phil Kelly]

One wonders who ACTUALLY contributed to the scores you've cited ( Gladiator and Batman # ??? ) Zimmer seems to have the charm and contacts to get all the gigs he does, but I still question exactly how much of the heavy lifting he actually does.

[Chris Alpiar]

yea I would love to know what really goes down behind the doors of his factory. I have heard stories of people who worked there for years who give it all up to go into real estate or something to save themselves

[phil Kelly]

Well ..call me an old fart ( which I guess I am ) , but I think the massive invasion of the electronic and sampling technology has ( to my ear ) reduced the overall individuality of the modern scoring process.

My career basically started when the Moog and ARP monophonic synths arrived , so I have employed electronics in my scores since the 70s ( as well as done entire scores with those unweildy beasts with the help of a musician who understood those things! )

My approach to electronics has always been they serve to supply another vital and individual set of unique orchestrational colors to add to my trick bag
along with the tried and true acoustic instruments.

By the time high end instrumental sampling came into use to REPLACE the live players, I felt uncomfortable with that option. Even the very best samples ( unless properly and carefully massaged thus consuming more time ) do not sound like actual players playing the parts.

( Having said that, I must add that I just completed a sampled project with one of our very talented composer associates on this board - Chris
Alpier -where he realized several symphonic arrangements I did for a vocalist who used Chris' versions of my backgrounds in conjunction with a live rhythm section. )

I was totally blown away with what Chris was able to achieve with his technological expertise. I also know how long it took him to get the results he did.

I would post one of the completed scores here except for the fact that the copyright restriction will not allow it.

[Evan Evans]

Honestly, I can hear his contribution. His scores are absolutely great, Rainman for instance. Driving Miss Daisy. He slaves over every note, and I can hear that clearly. But when he isn't the sole composer I can hear it in an instant. It's not as polished, perfect, or well produced.

It's a different kind of listening than Stravinsky, but if you train your ear to what Hans truly is bringing to the table, you might be able to find him in there. I can hear very much when he puts his hand into the pie.

Do I like him when I know it's just him? That's another debate. But respects are due. He is talented at something, even if it's not what snobby art composers would call music.