Music - for love or money

[Ray Kemp]

I've only become involved in musicians/composers forums since the beginning of this year. I've spent 40 years performing as a mercenary musician. (playing and singing covers). Give the people what they want when they want it. I compose and present my tunes here for one reason only. My satisfaction. My obsession.
Here and in some other forums there seems to be two main types of member. Those who already make a living from composing and recording Film/TV/Gaming cues or epics. Secondly those wishing to make a living wage from these genres. I listen to all the cues and epics based on Williams, Zimmer, etc. etc. and think apart from varying levels of samples and recording skills they all sound the same. Timpani rolls, Wagner Horns etc. New members join the East West forum and present their epic for approval, I listen and think, yeah I'm sure I heard that yesterday. Is it rude to tell some aspiring writer "that's been done to death try something else". I believe all truly original composing is achieved by by doing it for yourself and if someone wants to pay for it, that's a bonus. Am I in the real world.

Ray

[Ray Kemp]

Think on this Shawn,
I travel to Ireland for a few days next week talking to customers about cutting costs in their concrete production plants. Then in another couple of weeks time I head south to Nottingham where my company office is to discuss more issues about Concrete.
Let me think now. Music versus Concrete. hmm!

I know what you mean when it seems like a chore. When I was touring the country singing there were good jobs and bad jobs. I know I'm lucky in one respect now and that is I can choose any genre I like to play with of an evening. I just got QL Gypsy today so I'm into fiddle and accordion now.

[Don Poole]

Yes.

[Ray Kemp]

Hi Don,

Nice to meet you, I'll get a listen to your stuff soon
I take it yes is the answer to my original question,

Ray

[Don Poole]

Yes, Ray I think you are dead on with your observation! I agree with you completely.
Your music is very good. I can tell you are experienced. I like The Cat that got the Cream. It is hard for people to do the retro music nowadays. Keep up the good work!
Don Poole

[Shawn Patterson]

Ray -

I hear what you are saying. I have (many times) been in a position of when I am composing for a living and many times when I am not and I have had to hustle for any kind of work to get by. Could it be said that the best job (non-musical) is not as good as ANY job composing for someone? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It depends on the circumstances, I suppose. For me, personally, any composing job has to have SOME quality that goes beyond money. Did I learn something? (even if its learning something I will never repeat again), did I make a decent contribution to the picture/story, etc, make any decent human contacts?

I do know that very often, composing for a film/tv show results in having to make choices against ones instincts, accept substandard pay (in the competitive, comparable market) or other happenings that eat away at the initial joy of what it is we set out to do - compose music to picture and create a stronger emotional element.

At the end of the day, the person writing the check for the job has the final say and I try to keep that in perspective. This is, after all BUSINESS. We get hired - someone else calls the shots and we either comply or we do not. And on occasion, you get people that want your input and instincts (gasp !!! ) .If we do not meet the needs of the employer, that employer will find someone else who will. Its that simple. In my youth, I would have been that someone else. Willing to do anything to get hired.

I don't want to come across like I am complaining. Rarely, does a day go by that I don't consider myself lucky to be doing what I dreamed of (mostly...). But, I also sacrificed a great deal and essentially decided this is what I would do with my life (thank you, Satan! )

Having been in the thick of this for many years now, has allowed me to see the "business/political" side of what we do. It is an ongoing challenge to mix commerce and art. And generally speaking, I don't feel what I am asked to create IS art. It is often simply a mechanical process using the tools, talents and techniques we have learned/studied.

Let me also add that when I was fresh in Hollywood, from arriving from Massachusetts, I would have done work for free to get credits under my belt ( in fact, I DID work for free). Because, I had very little experience aside from being a working guitarist/bandleader and fanatic of film music. Now, my actions of composing for free gave the people that "hired" me a huge advantage; music for free. Music that was actually used for professional purposes (it must have been "good enough" by pro standards) and in a tiny way, hurt the other working composers out there trying to earn a competitive wage.

Let me pose this question to all of you. If you do not work (or have not worked )as a professional composer, just how far would you go to get "in" with a company/director/producer to get hired?

Would you be willing to compose ANY genre, to ANY edited picture to do this? Would you be willing to do this if the pay was not fair or competitive? I would just love to know.

For the record, I am not suggesting these are the conditions with my current composing job. I am referring to past experiences and experiences directly shared with me by colleagues.

Consider this all - and please post.


Shawn

[Denny Schneidemesser]

Well I think it's referable to the contemporary style of filmmusic. It was quite different until Zimmer started to revolutionize (or rather evolutionize) the genre with his modern elements. Epic themed music seems to be an subarea to me whatsoever. I for one enjoy some music out of this area although not everything, good melodies are very important for me.

However, I rather enjoy the music styles of 2D Animations a lot, or mainly everything that makes use of additional exotic instruments. And to answer the for love or money question: A composer who made it so far that he earns money out of his work would have never made it that far without his little obsession. I guess every composer loves what he's doing, no matter if it's commercial or not. ;)

[Ray Kemp]

Hi Don,
retro music for me, is from my experience of hearing it over the years without really listening and dissecting it. Therefore hoping to come up with something that "sounds like" without copying. We all know how difficult that task is. The Cat That Got The Cream came from a vague memory of the dancing girls with mini skirts and knee length boots on the Andy Williams Show in the 60's. I can see them prancing with knees up and arms forward! Yes I am a sad character! :-)

Ray

[Ray Kemp]

Hi Denny
nice to meet you here, and yes whatever style or genre one is into, we certainly all have the common bond of "musical obsession". In my case, at the expense of doing my feed the family job with less than 100% effort.

Ray

[Don Poole]

Hi Ray,

Yes, anyone can come up with "new" music. I recently had to compose some 1930's Spanish jazz and have a great appreciation for those who can write original music in any genre. It certainly takes discipline and talent. That is why my hat is off to you!

Take care,

Don

[Stephen Barry]

Okay, I have a lot to reply, so I know I'm going to leave out something but here it is...I know what you mean when you "that's been done to death, try something else"....and some people might need to hear that because it may make them start evaluating their music. Whenever someone has given me criticism (legitimate, and not just the fact that I deal with samples), I take it and analyze what I'm doing...it has helped a lot. I spent my earlier years wasting time that could have been put to use learning how to play instruments. I have always loved listening to music. I'm sure I could find someone who could give me competition, but I probably listen to more music than anybody. Period. Eventually I got into sound editing on the computer. My early stuff sounded really horrible, even by my standards. But I kept experimenting until I found I could actually compose music with what I was doing. After realized that, I began doing it on the daily. Sometimes, when I hear different pieces, it immediately clicks in my head a way I could work that into something totally different. And (contrary to popular belief) it does take work and creativity. I'm now starting out with the piano, so I'm going to work with that in the future. But I definitely have a passion (if not always the time, since I'm in college) to do what I do. I don't think I would try and change stylistically just for money (especially since my style is really relative to the listener). I have done songwriting to most of my pieces (which is why I repeat the same parts sometimes)....but anyway....however you decide to do your music..if you have a passion for it and you have your own ideas and visions for your work, I think you should advance that. Music that changes the game, so to speak, with in any genre, is always better than repeats of sameness that we're getting used to hearing.

Stephen

SIDE NOTE: Oh yeah, another thing. John Williams is the man!! I love just about everything John Williams has done. Zimmer is good too, but continue to be inspired by Williams all the time.

[Chris Alpiar]

"Is it rude to tell some aspiring writer "that's been done to death try something else".

Not rude at all my friend. What is their goal tho? To be an artist or to mix their artistry with a monetary career. unfortunately most film producers, if they want orchestral scores at all, still want John Williams or something along the romantic era rehash into film score.

Personally I am most in tune with chaotic avant garde jazz and spent many years in NYC as a performer of such.

I love writing for big band, in modern concepts or hugging traditions of wonderment like duke ellington and basie and bill hollman and thad jones and charlie mingus and gil evans. I spent many years studying big band and small group jazz composition (dual major at Berklee performance/jazz comp)

I am writing now orchestrally, with all those ideas and emotional responses in mypocket, but conciously trying to blend romantic era orchestral ideas, cliches, melody, motifs, with enough of my *darker side* to keep me feeling alive and that I am not sacrificing who I am to find success in the film and tv industry

Maybe I am kidding myself. I havent had that much glorious luck yet and so I cant say. I am also pretty damn stubborn so who knows if i ever will. But I keep myself going with small shorts, ad music, local song writing jobs, giving lectures, teaching, a little playing here and there, and hope that someday I get enough momentum that someone in the mainstream biz will say "hey that guy is kind of weird but hes got enough shit behind him that we can put him in some films"

Maybe I am kidding myself and my music is just a rehash of romantic orchestral music and the *unique stuff* i think i add to it is just my perception and its really just a big ball of mediocrity

Maybe I am the next brilliant artist to create something completely new, just i havent the opportunity yet to show it

Maybe im amazed at the way you love me all the time maybe im amazed at the way i need you

Ah cathartic existential self indulgence. Am I real? Or am I a twinkie?

[Stephen Barry]

"Maybe im amazed at the way you love me all the time maybe im amazed at the way i need you"

Okay...that made me laugh, and like that song!