Music - for love or money

[Ray Kemp]

I've only become involved in musicians/composers forums since the beginning of this year. I've spent 40 years performing as a mercenary musician. (playing and singing covers). Give the people what they want when they want it. I compose and present my tunes here for one reason only. My satisfaction. My obsession.
Here and in some other forums there seems to be two main types of member. Those who already make a living from composing and recording Film/TV/Gaming cues or epics. Secondly those wishing to make a living wage from these genres. I listen to all the cues and epics based on Williams, Zimmer, etc. etc. and think apart from varying levels of samples and recording skills they all sound the same. Timpani rolls, Wagner Horns etc. New members join the East West forum and present their epic for approval, I listen and think, yeah I'm sure I heard that yesterday. Is it rude to tell some aspiring writer "that's been done to death try something else". I believe all truly original composing is achieved by by doing it for yourself and if someone wants to pay for it, that's a bonus. Am I in the real world.

Ray

[Ray Kemp]

Hi Andreas,
I'm lucky, I can have my obsession with music without needing income from it. I also appreciate there are others like yourself who see composing music as their salvation from the kitchen sink. I have listened to your work on piano and it is very good. Can you support yourself and your family as a composer/performer. I can't say. I think performing has come back to the top for earning money in the 21st century. mp3 usage has made recorded music a cheap commodity for the masses so it has a much lesser value than it did in the second half of the 20th century. The only thing that hasn't changed - you can't beat a good tune / theme / hook.

My Best

Ray

[Neil Bruce]

"I listen to all the cues and epics based on Williams, Zimmer, etc. etc. and think apart from varying levels of samples and recording skills they all sound the same. Timpani rolls, Wagner Horns etc. New members join the East West forum and present their epic for approval, I listen and think, yeah I'm sure I heard that yesterday. Is it rude to tell some aspiring writer "that's been done to death try something else"."

Well said!!!!

I couldn't agree more...the sad thing is that he who pays the piper calls the tune!

Neil

[Ray Kemp]

Hi Neil,

Yeah that piper sure makes a awful din! The Scottish one.
That's it alright. Give the customer what they want when they want it, but am I right in thinking there are less customers about.

Ray

[Neil Bruce]

I think there are less 'paying' customers in traditional markets. We seem to be (and I would say the rest of the media...and other industries) working on 'payment in hope' rather than payment in cash. The hope that if you work for free, then the next gig will pay!

Sadly I also think that there is a huge acceptence in 'low' quality and generic work, which meets the expectations of the client....in fact with things like Soundtrack, Garageband, iMovie make everyone think that they can do it all....which is a great thing on one hand, but I feel does lead itself to a dumbing down of the professions!

All the best

Neil

[Ray Kemp]

Neil,
I'm glad you said that and not me. although I use the technology for for personal live? performance starting with hardware four track sequencers then thru Steinberg on Atari some years ago advancing advancing etc. I never thought about writing stuff until this year. Quite frankly I didn't particularly pay any attention to film sound tracks. Hang my head in shame! The pity is as you say it's not musicians employing musicians, so we can have all the opinions we like about others work but it'll make no difference. There is a local venue here that has live bands on every week. The bands perform for free because they've been told important people in the industry listen there. 'say's it all eh!

regards

Ray

[Jesse Hopkins]

Well, think of it this way. That might really be their voice as a composer. There may be no other reason they decided to compose other than being deeply moved by the music of Romantic and Film composers. And then you have to get into the debate of whether it should still continue. I for one think that there are still more than a few masterpieces left to be written in large orchestral dramatic work.

Personally I hate emulating the work of others, but let's not confuse medium with style. On a few pieces, I have used other composers' work as a model (Rosza, Poledouris) but the most important thing is that I try to find my own voice while still sticking to my goal - writing new dramatic orchestral music that moves people in new ways.

SIDE NOTE: If you think Zimmer and Williams sound the same, well.. You don't really, do you? Listen to Memoirs of a Geisha or The Accidental Tourist. Williams has only written a handful of Wagnerian Horn soundtracks compared to his quirky, jazzy or intimate scores. Zimmer is another story. He's more of a producer - mixing sounds from all over to create orchestral pop fusion. I'm not into him, but its nothing like Williams.

[Ray Kemp]

Jesse,
Thanks for your views on this subject. I'm sure there are many great orchestral works still to be written
and I hope you are able to present yours to the world.
I haven't studied music. I know what I like and what I like isn't coloured by genre, My use of both Williams and Zimmer in one sentence wasn't to compare their work but their position in the pecking order when the studios call. They've made it and most composers/producers would like to be there.
I don't have a favourite composer/producer but I do have favourite compositions/productions.
It says it all that I find the need to use the connected term composer/producer, as we find it a necessity to do both jobs when using DAWs while writing.

Best Regards

Ray

[Shawn Patterson]

"Williams has only written a handful of Wagnerian Horn soundtracks compared to his quirky, jazzy or intimate scores. Zimmer is another story. He's more of a producer - mixing sounds from all over to create orchestral pop fusion. I'm not into him, but its nothing like Williams."

Hi - if I may.. I suspect what Ray is saying is that there is a an overall formula to the "epic" film score. I hold "Johnny" Williams in the absolute highest regard. While I believe he is artistically (largely) "higher" than most others ( in terms of his orchestration, composition etc,) he sits among the lot of the "big studio" production approach. Thats not to say he doesn't come out with some "different" material frequently ( "Catch Me If You Can" for example...). But, there's this highly sought after, almost methodical approach to scoring a main stream film. Say, when there is an action based film - there is a certain palette we haver come to expect. Anyone noticed a rising trend in solo cello in cowboy scores? :) And on and on....

I am not saying this is necessarily good or bad. I am just adding (I hope) some further thought on the subject. I myself am guilty of perpetuating the stereo types of film music - and I generally find it frustrating. Although, I am mostly in Saturday morning animation, what I am frequently asked to do is "the cliche". When I stretch out (harmonically - orchestration wise, etc...) and try to expand the palette, I am almost always pulled back.

I find the older I get, the gap is becoming more narrow. I find the 11 minute format that dreamed of writing for (as a young man) often feeling like a ceiling that is closing down on me. Restrictive, subject to constant limitation, etc.

I dream one day of writing pure concert work - for myself and myself alone.

But, I digress...... I must get back to "composing" another "shock" diminished orc sting for when the character walks on screen and his eye balls explode... :) ::::::::::::: sigh:::::::::::::::::::

Cheers -

Shawn

[Jesse Hopkins]

I've been thinking of the early twilight zone scores and how they utilized small ensembles of live players in interesting ways. Interesting music, too. There's a parallel with the early Cronenberg films. I often think instead of everything being 'orchestral synth' when the budget doesn't allow for orchestra, they should settle for as many players as they can afford - 5 to 20 maybe. Then the composer spends less hours 'producing' as Ray said.

[Shawn Patterson]

Yes! I love the early "Sandy" Courage stuff on Star Trek. One of my biggest influences. Live players (as you said) recorded as a small ensemble (certainly by today's feature score standards) and man, they made use of what they had.

I think, (as is now the norm), directors/producers (for the most part) would rather have the "as big as we can get" mentality as is the case with most media today. Its all designed to zap the senses. It certainly is refreshing when something created with a small ensemble emerges. he score to Adaptation comes to mind (if memory serves - and it usually doesn't.... ;)

Anyone hear the score to "Jesse James" ? Thoughts? This comes to mind... but, personally, I would have liked to hear a few more early 19th century instruments wove into the score. I found the piano a little repetitive and flat - (of course, my feeling on the film was like this, so, without doubt, the music wasn't going to move it).

Love to hear other opinions of the "James" score.

S

[Ray Kemp]

Yes I did comment on the ratio between composing and producing. I'm not the greatest musician so I probably spend most of my time trying to make something sound musical through the production. I'm happy doing this, in fact it's a constant pleasure for me.

Ray

[Shawn Patterson]

I hear ya, Ray.

Maybe one day you can become as jaded as I have become. ;)

Just kidding.

The personal growth and satisfaction is what I look for in my work and what keeps me searching.

S